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Baldwin Street Shooting

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Meade » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:13 pm

Maggie wrote:I am personally ready to forgive Officer Heimsness but not until he admits to the community that what he did that night was wrong, that he regrets his mistakes, and begs for our forgiveness. When he does that I am ready to open my heart to this man and forgive him. Anything short of that and he will not have my respect or forgiveness.


I am personally ready to forgive residents in your neighborhood who leave their keys in their front doors but not until they admit to the community that what they did that night was wrong, that they regret their mistake, and beg for our forgiveness. When they do that, I am ready to open my heart to those residents and forgive them. Anything short of that and they will not have my respect or forgiveness for setting up a situation in which any confused person could just walk in off the street, they suspect that confused person of being a burglar, call 911, knowing that armed police trained in the use of deadly force will arrive and be forced into making split second judgments in which the wrong choice could mean Mrs. Walter is made, suddenly, a widow, her children made fatherless.

If you don't want to lock your front doors, please refrain from calling the police for your personal protection when someone haplessly wanders in. And stop looking for blood on Officer Heimsness's hands before you first look at what is already on your own.
Last edited by Meade on Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:26 pm

In 2001, Heimsness shot out the tires of a car driving recklessly in a campus area parking ramp. The Dane County DA decided not to file charges against Heimsness, but Madison.com records indicate that he was suspended 15 days without pay for using excessive force.

Uncle_Leaver, does that sound like a clean record to you?

Uncle_Leaver, I don't disagree with much you have said. I actually know you in real life and have always admired both your musical and writing talents. This is a difficult time for all of us, but we will carry on.
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Re: R, e: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Maggie wrote: Well, I am going to leave it there.

...or maybe not.
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Re: R, e: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:37 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Maggie wrote: Well, I am going to leave it there.

...or maybe not.


yeah I know sorry about that Henry Vilas. I spoke too soon. Please forgive me.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Maggie wrote:I am making a personal crusade that the shoot to kill policy be ended and replaced with a more humane policy. The current policy can not stand. The next person killed by a cop may be your friend,kid or family member.


Whoa, in at least two of your posts you characterize it as a "shoot to kill" policy. Where in the world is that coming from? The only people who have a "shoot to kill" policy in the civilian, i.e., non-military, world are criminals. I know of no law enforcement agency that has a "shoot to kill" policy, nor are non-law enforcement citizens taught to have a "shoot to kill" policy. Police officers and citizens alike are taught that if they must shoot they shoot "to stop the threat." One can shoot and continue to shoot as long as the threat of great bodily harm or death continues, but once the threat ends the shooting must end too. What does "the threat ends" mean? It means the threat has fled (although there can be rare circumstances that justify shooting a fleeing threat), the threat surrenders, or the threat is incapacitated. Stopping a threat can result from just threatening deadly force without firing a shot, firing a shot that misses but halts the aggression, or firing every round in your gun, reloading and firing again. There's no set answer to what it takes, but once the threat is ended the shooting should stop. Death may be a consequence but it is not the goal. In a "shoot to kill" policy, death is the goal. Here's a short passage from everyone's friend, the NRA:

"The purpose of shooting an attacker is to deprive him of the ability to deliver deadly force. Put another way, you shoot an attacker to stop his life-threatening attack. Even though a firearm is a tool of last resort, your intent when using it against a violent criminal is not to kill, but simply to stop the attack. This is accomplished when the assailant is incapacitated or no longer presents a deadly threat... ... Sometimes it is not necessary to incapacitate an attacker; he may flee or surrender, no longer presenting a deadly threat. In general, once an attacker no longer presents a threat, you are no longer legally or ethically justified in employing force against that attacker."

Now you have to also take into consideration that police officers are also in the business of and have a duty to take violent suspects into custody, something non-LEOs are rarely called upon to do and even more rarely advised to attempt to do. Taking someone into custody instead of just allowing them to flee may require additional force beyond simply "stopping the threat."

Madison PD's policy on the use of deadly force is publicly available on their website (See policy 6-100) and it appears to me to be consistent with, and nearly identical to, the self-defense laws of the state and pretty much every other state as well. The use of deadly force is legally justified under the same circumstances for police as it is for you or I or any other person. No more so, no less so.

So I am baffled by what it is in the policy that "cannot stand" and that you'll personally "crusade" to end. I'd be very curious as to what "more humane" policy you'd formulate and not endanger the lives of people acting in self defense.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:30 pm

Chicago Mayor Richard Daley in 1968 said: "I said to him very emphatically and very definitely that an order be issued by him immediately to shoot to kill any arsonist or anyone with a Molotov cocktail in his hand, because they're potential murderers, and to shoot to maim or cripple anyone looting."
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby bcs89 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:09 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Chicago Mayor Richard Daley in 1968 said: "I said to him very emphatically and very definitely that an order be issued by him immediately to shoot to kill any arsonist or anyone with a Molotov cocktail in his hand, because they're potential murderers, and to shoot to maim or cripple anyone looting."




This is in what way relevant to the MPD/situation being discussed?
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:20 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Whoa, in at least two of your posts you characterize it as a "shoot to kill" policy. Where in the world is that coming from?


The police can use all the fancy language they want but the bottom line is that police are trained not to wound a suspect but to shoot them in the chest repeatedly in such a way that is likely to be fatal.

Stop trying to bullshit us. It is a shoot to kill policy and you know it.
Last edited by Maggie on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:22 pm

I don't have a problem with Henry's contribution. It illustrates what I said above: Only criminals have a "shoot to kill" policy.

Besides, as anyone who has seen the Blues Brothers knows, Mayor Daley no longer dines at Chez Paul. He's dead.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:31 pm

Dangerousman wrote: Only criminals have a "shoot to kill" policy.


what a stupid thing to say...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7461450

See, it really is shoot to kill no matter how much doublespeak they use on their websites.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:21 pm

In cases where the police do not know if a person is armed the law should be that they must use minimal force. A weapon should only be discharged as a last resort when the officer is under an actual physical attack and then they ought not be allowed to shoot the suspect multiple times.

Paul Heenan's actions did not meet this test. Not even close.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:04 pm

bcs89 wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Chicago Mayor Richard Daley in 1968 said: "I said to him very emphatically and very definitely that an order be issued by him immediately to shoot to kill any arsonist or anyone with a Molotov cocktail in his hand, because they're potential murderers, and to shoot to maim or cripple anyone looting."

This is in what way relevant to the MPD/situation being discussed?

It was a simple response to DMan's long-winded post. If it's guns involved, Johnny One Note dissertates.

Cops aren't trained to wing them.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:29 pm

It might become more interesting...

http://www.channel3000.com/news/Paul-He ... index.html
MADISON, Wis. -

A neighbor who witnessed a Madison police officer shoot and kill a man has hired a lawyer.

Madison attorney Hal Harlowe, a former Dane County district attorney, confirmed that he is representing Kevin O'Malley and his family.

This comes shortly after Paul Heenan's parents hired Jeff Scott Olson, possibly to pursue a civil suit....

Police said O'Malley's wife called 911, thinking a burglar had broken into her home. Her husband went downstairs to check on the situation and found Heenan.

Kevin O'Malley was walking Heenan home when Heenan was shot and killed by Officer Stephen Heimesness.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby fennel » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:35 pm

Maggie wrote:In cases where the police do not know if a person is armed the law should be that they must use minimal force. A weapon should only be discharged as a last resort when the officer is under an actual physical attack and then they ought not be allowed to shoot the suspect multiple times.
The problem here is that police are essentially trained to shoot (if they shoot) to kill. This is how it was once explained to me by an officer in Vermont, anyway. The decision to shoot is considered to have a very high threshold, but when that threshold is passed, the response should be overwhelming. Specifically (my officer's) training was to shoot at center mass with the intention of stopping the suspect. What center mass means in this context is anybody's guess, but I have a hunch it's a bureaucratic way of referring to the torso. And stopping ... well that just seems a little vague, too. Is it for the time being, forever ...?

(At this point, I ought to invite anyone with more or better information to chime in. My experience is anecdotal.)

Anyway, my point is that police officers are usually trained fairly specifically how to respond, once certain defined conditions are met.

I can see the value of that kind of training, which may be somewhat rote, since it becomes almost physically ingrained, and won't be as likely to vaporize in a stressful situation. But I've never really trusted that it's the best approach.

Maybe the best approach is to have most officers armed only with typically non-lethal tools, and to leave firearms to special response units. The Brits seem pretty happy with this approach.

It would also be helpful if we could remove the possibility that an officer's weapon might be used against her. (By technical means, for example.) That would lessen the threat where a suspect is clearly unarmed but unpredictable.
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Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:44 pm

fennel wrote:Specifically (my officer's) training was to shoot at center mass with the intention of stopping the suspect. What center mass means in this context is anybody's guess, but I have a hunch it's a bureaucratic way of referring to the torso. And stopping ... well that just seems a little vague, too. Is it for the time being, forever ...?

The targets used by police at the firing range are scored using a point system.

A picture is worth a thousand words.
Image
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