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Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Detritus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:53 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Detritus wrote:O, I can haz gender now?



OK, s/he/it

That better, Nemo?

John Henry

Sure thing, Dave.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby pjbogart » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:42 am

While I think that this story has a certain titillating element, overall it's not much more than a minor scandal. Suzy likes sex. Most women do. She also likes the danger of getting paid for sex. I think most women (and men even more so) would be more than happy to give up a little sex for a few thousand dollars. We're not talking about Badger Road hookers here, where a woman isn't sure if she'll get paid until the money is in her hand and the John is driving away. We're talking about classy escort services, big money with professionals on both sides of the transaction.

The tragedy here isn't that Suzy Favor likes sex and money. It's that young girls who looked up to her will have a difficult time processing this story.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Ducatista » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:17 am

pjbogart wrote:I think most women (and men even more so) would be more than happy to give up a little sex for a few thousand dollars.

Um, the women you hang out with may not be typical.

I came up in the early 80s, when giving it away for free whenever I felt like it was my happy prerogative. My friends and I were and still are a fairly libertine bunch, but "giving up a little sex" for cash was and still is on the other side of a very bright line.

Fine with me if Suzy was up for it (though it sucks for her husband and sponsors). If we were less prudish about prostitution it would be safer for all involved, and women might be consumers as often as producers. But even then, I don't think "most women" would be comfortable with a cash transaction.

Or maybe I'm the atypical one.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:31 am

pjbogart wrote:We're not talking about Badger Road hookers here, where a woman isn't sure if she'll get paid until the money is in her hand and the John is driving away.


Those Badger Road hookers must like you, PJ. Perhaps it is your honest face, PJ.

Most hookers, even the high class ones, require payment up front.

I am reliably informed, anyway.

John Henry
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby jjoyce » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:06 am

Ducatista wrote:Or maybe I'm the atypical one.


What's fascinating about this particular case is that all the men seem to have a quick opinion and few seem to be asking women what they think. We're supposed to care what Andy Baggot's opinion is on this matter because he covered Favor as an athlete for years. He could have used his considerable platform to do some reporting and attempt to answer the question about why a woman would willingly engage in prostitution if she didn't need the money and actually spent a lot of her career working with girls and women on self esteem issues.

I mean, Stu Levitan is going to talk about this on the air this morning and, apparently, reference the mutterings of a TDPF Foron. How enlightening! Yay, media!
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Huckleby » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:46 pm

Ducatista wrote: My friends and I were and still are a fairly libertine bunch, but "giving up a little sex" for cash was and still is on the other side of a very bright line.... I don't think "most women" would be comfortable with a cash transaction.


This is a consistent, strong reaction I've heard from women. They are adamant that putting a price on sex is wrong. The reaction seems close to universal.

Is it a moral issue? I doubt it, other than perhaps as a rationalization for deeper emotions. Women with all sorts of views about religion and morality and sex come to the same conclusion. And if it was strictly morality, men would have similar reactions.

I *think* I know the reason for the gender difference here, not sure I can explain it.

Exhibit A: wild-woman Ducasista is sensitive about the word "cunt." Have you ever known a man who was sensitive about the word "dick"? This is a related issue and a clue.

A woman set me straight once, certainly no pun intended. I can't remember how the conversation veered into women's sensitivities about their naughty bits, but she explained it this way: "Because that's where babies come from." Women hold a sacredness about reproduction that men just can't relate to, I think. Selling access to the tunnel of life is sacrilege.

Another theory: sexuality is a power women generally hold over men. Women are the choosers, most often. If that power can be equated to a cash transfer, it diminishes. I don't know if this one is true.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:21 pm

Huckleby wrote:This is a consistent, strong reaction I've heard from women. They are adamant that putting a price on sex is wrong. The reaction seems close to universal.

Universal in your world, not in mine. The consensus I've heard, even among the straighter-laced women I know: it's fine for her (or: good for her!), but I'd never do it.

Huckleby wrote:Exhibit A: wild-woman Ducasista is sensitive about the word "cunt." Have you ever known a man who was sensitive about the word "dick"? This is a related issue and a clue.

What the... I assume what you're referring to is this...

I wrote:I can say cunt, but if you say it (as a man) I'll think you're a total cunt.

...which, by the way, was part of an ideological résumé requested by you. To clarify: Cunt, unless used playfully between profanity-friendly female friends, is an escalator, especially from a guy. It's either aggressively mean, or incredibly tone deaf. I'd say tone deaf for you, considering you think dick and cunt are equivalent.

Huckleby wrote:Women hold a sacredness about reproduction that men just can't relate to, I think. Selling access to the tunnel of life is sacrilege.

That sounds more like a guy hangup, actually. Personally: the "tunnel of life"? Not this cunt. Nothing goes out the in door. The uterus is a reproductive organ. The vag is a sexual organ.

Huckleby wrote:Another theory: sexuality is a power women generally hold over men. Women are the choosers, most often. If that power can be equated to a cash transfer, it diminishes. I don't know if this one is true.

Hey, you're back to your old lots-of-spaces-after-a-period trick. Wonder if bdog is, too.

But back on topic: And women have managed to leverage that power into what, exactly? Greater pay than men for equal work? Disproportionately high representation in boardrooms and in government? More and better choices than men when it comes to medical care? Yeah, I can see why we wouldn't want to trade all that for immediate economic gain.

I don't think women's reluctance is any big mystery. Morality aside, I'd say it comes down to two things:

1) Safety. Despite your power theory, women are more vulnerable than men when it comes to sex—to STDs, pregnancy, violence. And not a little more vulnerable. By orders of magnitude.

2) Stigma. When's the last time you used "whore" as a compliment, Huck?

Both could be mitigated, though not eliminated, through legalized prostitution, which I'm sure won't happen in my lifetime, if ever.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Huckleby » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:10 pm

Ducatista wrote: My friends and I were and still are a fairly libertine bunch, but "giving up a little sex" for cash was and still is on the other side of a very bright line.

Ducatista wrote: Universal in your world, not in mine. The consensus I've heard, even among the straighter-laced women I know: it's fine for her (or: good for her!), but I'd never do it.


Seems to be a direct contradiction here, emotionally. You turned that very bright line into a fuzzy ambiguity. I get the logical distinction, and the reluctance to take a judgemental stance towards others. I'm trusting that first very bright line.

Ducatista wrote: Cunt, unless used playfully between profanity-friendly female friends, is an escalator, especially from a guy. It's either aggressively mean, or incredibly tone deaf. I'd say tone deaf for you, considering you think dick and cunt are equivalent.
"dick" is hardly a term of endearment.
Yes, the words carry different tones. Why? They are both slang terms for genitalia. Why is the c word mean? Because it hits a nerve.

Ducatista wrote: Personally: the "tunnel of life"? Not this cunt. Nothing goes out the in door. The uterus is a reproductive organ. The vag is a sexual organ.

OK. Well, somehow that woman's statement about the source of life struck me as very deep and true. I will leave open the possibility that you are an anomaly: shallow, cold, sexually predatory. Just kidding about the first two.

I propose that we take a field trip to see "The Vagina Monologues"
Afterwords, I may have a reflection or two about my little man.


Ducatista wrote:Hey, you're back to your old lots-of-spaces-after-a-period trick.
After I've endured a period, yes, maybe I want a little space. Men have feelings too, your crabbing takes its toll.

Ducatista wrote:But back on topic: And women have managed to leverage that power into what, exactly?
Not much. I wouldn't particularly want to be a woman in the dating dynamics. Actually, everything gets way more sane after about 30 anyway. The hormonal imbalance levels out.

Ducatista wrote:I don't think women's reluctance is any big mystery. Morality aside, I'd say it comes down to two things:

1) Safety. Despite your power theory, women are more vulnerable than men when it comes to sex—to STDs, pregnancy, violence. And not a little more vulnerable. By orders of magnitude.

2) Stigma. When's the last time you used "whore" as a compliment, Huck?
Ya, that stigma part is a big deal. And it goes beyond culture, it's been so ingrained over the centuries that I expect it is now genetic.


That word "mystery" .... there is a certain mystery about female genitalia. For the obvious, the goodies are more obscured. Perhaps women are protective of that mystery?
"The Vagina Monologue" outing may provide some insight.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:46 pm

Kinda feel like I'm shouting down a well, but eh, why not.

Huckleby wrote:Seems to be a direct contradiction here, emotionally.

Not being "adamant that putting a price on sex is wrong" seems to be in direct contradiction with never wanting to do it? Ridiculous.

Ducatista wrote:Yes, the words carry different tones.    Why?  They are both slang terms for genitalia.   Why is the c word mean?   Because it hits a nerve.

Like I said: tone deaf. If you want to compare dick to pussy or box, sure. But cunt falls much closer to nigger or fag territory. They hit a nerve, too.

Huckleby wrote:Ya, that stigma part is a big deal.

And the safety part isn't?? That's just skeevy, man, like much of your post.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Huckleby » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:45 pm

Ducatista wrote: But cunt falls much closer to nigger or fag territory. They hit a nerve, too.

why? "cunt" is no more demeaning than "dick"
Is it because the word sounds dirty? whorish? why?

Rather than give thoughtful answers, you get angry and make demeaning remarks. So skip it if you aren't capable of a civil conversation about this topic.

Ducatista wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Ya, that stigma part is a big deal.
And the safety part isn't?? That's just skeevy, man, like much of your post.
I didn't say safety is not an issue. The practical reasons that women avoid prostitution are obvious. I'm not buying for a second that woman are more negative towards prostitution than men because of practicalities. Or that women would engage freely in prostitution absent practical problems. Sex-for-pay would be a "bright clear line" in the absence of the STD issue. Women are not condemning SFH in large numbers because they worry she might get a STD.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scri ... nsler.html

HOWEVER, SHE ALSO TOLD ME IN THE COURSE OF OUR CONVERSATION
THAT I HAD SAID SOMETHING NEGATIVE
ABOUT A PARTICULAR WORD.
A PEJORATIVE WORD,
A WORD THAT'S BEEN USE D TO DECLAIM THE VAGINA,
AND SHE NEEDED TO HELP ME RECONCEIVE THIS WORD.
SO, FOR THE NEXT HOUR,
SHE TALKED TO ME ABOUT THIS WORD,
AND WHEN SHE WAS DONE,
I WAS A CONVERT.
. I WROTE THIS FOR HER..
I CALL IT...
CUNT.
I'VE RECLAIMED IT.
CUNT.
I REALLY LIKE IT.
CUNT,
JUST LISTEN TO IT, LISTEN TO IT.
CUNT.
CA...
CA...
CAVERN,
CACKLE, CLIT, CUTE, COME-CLOSED C,
CLOSED INSIDE, INSIDE CA...
CA...
THEN U...
THEN CU...
THEN CURVY, INVITING SHARKSKIN, U...
UNIFORM,
UNDER,
UP,
URGE,
OOH, OOH, U...
. THEN N, THEN CUN..
CUN...
SNUG LETTERS FITTING PERFECTLY TOGETHER.
N...
NEST, NOW,
NEXUS, NICE,
ALWAYS DEPTH, ALWAYS ROUND IN UPPERCASE,
CUN, CUN... !
A JAGGED WICKE D ELECTRICAL PULSE.
N..., N...
THEN SOFT N, WARM N...
CUN, CUN.
THEN T, THEN T...
THEN SHARP CERTAIN TANGY T...
TEXTURE, TAKE,
TIGHT, TENT,
TANTALIZING,
TENSING,
TASTE,
TENDRILS,
TIME,
TACTILE,
TELL ME !
TELL ME, CUNT !
CUNT !
SAY IT !
TELL ME, COME ON !
CUNT.
CUNT.
CUNT !
WHOO !
. LOVE THAT WORD
I CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH.
I CAN'T STOP SAYING IT.
FEELING A LITTLE IRRITATED IN THE AIRPORT,
JUST SAY "CUNT", EVERYTHING CHANGES.
"WHAT DID YOU SAY ?"
I SAID, "CUNT, THAT'S RIGHT, CUNT, CUNT, CUNT, CUNT."
IT FEELS GOOD.
TRY IT, GO AHEAD, GO AHEAD.
CUNT.
CUNT.
CUNT.
CUNT.
. CUNT, CUNT
CUNT.
. CUNT, CUNT
CUNT !
( together ) CUNT, CUNT, CUNT... !
I'M A CUNT !
MY MOTHER'S GONNA SEE THIS, I CAN'T.
CUNT.
THIS IS BETTER THAN THERAPY.
TURNS THE DAY AROUND, I PROMISE YOU.
WE'RE MOVING ALONG.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Ducatista » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Ducatista wrote: But cunt falls much closer to nigger or fag territory. They hit a nerve, too.

why?   "cunt" is no more demeaning than "dick"
Is it because the word sounds dirty?   whorish?  why?

Rather than give thoughtful answers, you get angry and  make demeaning remarks.  So skip it if you aren't capable of a civil conversation about this topic.

Didn't mean to rile you, Huck...and I'm guessing I didn't, that's just theater. Or gin. Either way, I'm not angry, and mine was a thoughtful response.

If you want to stick it to The Woman, say cunt. Preferably in public, because it's an excellent social lubricant. Really.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Merde » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:08 pm

Huckleby wrote:you get angry and make demeaning remarks. So skip it if you aren't capable of a civil conversation about this topic.

Aren't you a little thin-skinned for a troll?
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Huckleby » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:18 pm

Not theater, I was genuinely riled. My forehead was perspiring, nostrils flaring, adrenaline coursing through veins. Thinking back, perhaps there was a component of sexual arousal.

No, I will not be dropping the c bomb anytime soon, I do have some survival instincts. I do wish that word, along with all other embargoed words, would be liberated. Why, I stood up and cheered when Elton John called Madonna a cunt. Of course it was OK because he was defending Lady Gaga, and the girls were just being girls.

In attitudes towards prostitution and the snatch ("the crack that rules the world") I do believe women often have strong feelings not shared by men. Lots of reasons maybe, but I sense feelings of vulnerability. Probably not possible to discuss on the internet. BTW, I would sooner stick needles in my eyeballs than sit through "The Vagina Monologues."

Oh, and you may think the word "pussy" is good to go, but I once knew a woman who hated that word more than any in the english language. She was a strong feminist back in the 70's, and the metaphor of the female genitals as weakness drove her bonkers.
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby Stu Levitan » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:00 pm

Huckleby wrote:Oh, and you may think the word "pussy" is good to go, but I once knew a woman who hated that word more than any in the english language. She was a strong feminist back in the 70's, and the metaphor of the female genitals as weakness drove her bonkers.


That last point is a very valid critique. But does that invalidate the word's use just to refer to female genitalia?
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Re: Suzy Favor Hamilton, Las Vegas Call-Girl

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:47 pm

Ducatista wrote:but "giving up a little sex" for cash was and still is on the other side of a very bright line.


When I first read that, I agreed, thinking it was probably fairly obviously true. I still think that most women would see sex for cash as a bright line that they would not cross so I am not really disagreeing.

On reflection, though, it seems like the "sex for cash" itself may be a grey area.

Some women will go out with a guy, let him buy dinner, dancing, drinks and so on with a sort of implicit expectation of sex at the end of the night. Also, a sort of implicit expectation that if he doesn't take her out for dinner etc, there will be no sex.

Or women will go out to a bar looking for a guy with the intention of having sex. (Same reason the guy is there. Been going on forever) The guy will usually pay for all the drinks, no? At least they did in my day. The woman figures she is paying with sex.

Or the woman who really prefers not to work, gets hooked up with a sugar daddy who pays her rent, gives her gifts and so on.

Or taking it a step further, the woman who gets married mainly for the economic benefits they will get from marriage. As opposed to marrying for love, companionship etc.

Then we have some other possible areas. Our president told us that fellatio was not sex and we learned that many teenage girls do not consider it sex either. Would taking $50 from a friend, just to help with the rent, for giving him a quick blowjob be "sex for cash"? Would it make a difference to the equation how the transaction came about? "Hi Joanie, how about a blowjob. Here's $50." versus "That was a great blowjob, Joanie. Thanks." and then discretely leaving $50 on the kitchen counter as you make your exit.

What about porn actresses? They are getting paid cash money for having sex on camera. Does the work nature of the situation alter the "cash for sex" equation? Is Jenna Jameson a prostitute?

I still agree with you that most women would view prostitution as a bright line that they would not cross. I think this is what you had in mind, right?

I think the question of what constitutes sex for cash is a much dimmer line.

There was a great Seinfeld episode that examined this question. Jerry was not sure whether he was paying his maid/girlfriend for sex or cleaning.

http://youtu.be/c4mtU6APg88

John Henry
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