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West, Texas explosion and zoning

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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:20 pm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/einpc/message/504

I just found this, and it's interesting even though it's history. In 2000 the Royster plant on Cottage Grove Road had 290,000 lbs of ammonium nitrate on site, according to the Fire Department.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby DCB » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:57 pm

Democracy Now! has excellent coverage of this issue:
Mike Elk wrote:This is a non-union facility. The way OSHA typically works, and as well as EPA, is that they get a call from a worker, and then inspectors show up, and they inspect the plant, and they find problems. When you have a non-union workforce, like you have in this plant, that’s a lot less likely, since many folks are scared of losing their jobs. So there hasn’t been an inspection in at least five years, from what we can tell.

There are 2,200 inspectors in this country, OSHA inspectors, for eight million workplaces. Due to the understaffing of OSHA, OSHA could inspect a plant once every 129 years.

The one issue that people that hate regulation go after the most is workplace safety. There was a study released by the GAO last spring in 2012 showing that OSHA takes twice as long as the EPA to issue rules and five times as long as the SEC to issue new rules.


But by all means, let's bust the unions and attack big government.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:07 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Do the city of Waco's zoning regs apply to the nearby town of West? And even if the plant was there way before zoning was adopted, why were nursing homes and schools, as well as residential housing, allowed to be built so close to the fertilizer factory (after zoning was established)? Was any of that construction also grandfathered in?
To whom are you posing these questions? Or are they merely rhetorical? I see much of this thread as a rather sad attempt to leverage a horrible tragedy to score personal political points (looking at you, Henry).
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:09 pm

That's right, you only defend libertarianism in the abstract. Real life situations are just too personal for you.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:14 pm

I try not to use emotional appeals when making arguments. Until we know more of the facts and a have broader understanding of the issues leading up to this tragedy, we should hesitate to draw knee-jerk conclusions about this event or others like it.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:17 pm

This WaPo article has some background information on the synthetic fertilizer industry and safety and accident statistics. This article falls far short of an exhaustive and objective review of the issues, but it's a start in the right direction.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby HawkHead » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:18 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:I try not to use emotional appeals when making arguments. Until we know more of the facts and a have broader understanding of the issues leading up to this tragedy, we should hesitate to draw knee-jerk conclusions about this event or others like it.


In another thread you thought it was fine for someone to do whatever they wanted to on their property. Where do you draw the line? Before or after your property was destroyed and you are in the hospital in critical condition?
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:28 pm

HawkHead wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:I try not to use emotional appeals when making arguments. Until we know more of the facts and a have broader understanding of the issues leading up to this tragedy, we should hesitate to draw knee-jerk conclusions about this event or others like it.


In another thread you thought it was fine for someone to do whatever they wanted to on their property. Where do you draw the line? Before or after your property was destroyed and you are in the hospital in critical condition?
Where do I draw the line for what? Also, in what way do your questions relate to the text that you quoted (my earlier post)?
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby HawkHead » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:28 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:I try not to use emotional appeals when making arguments. Until we know more of the facts and a have broader understanding of the issues leading up to this tragedy, we should hesitate to draw knee-jerk conclusions about this event or others like it.


Let me ask a more serious question.

What should be the penalty for someone destroying someone elses property in a Libertarian world? How about killing someone? Is infringing on someone elses Liberty or ending it in death desrve an equal punishment?

Is the person who kills first just exercising their Liberty to terminate someone else?
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:38 pm

HawkHead wrote:What should be the penalty for someone destroying someone elses property in a Libertarian world?
Restitution of the victim or the victim's estate is the just resolution for a situation in which a crime has been committed. It's possible that a crime could be so catastrophic or chaotic that restitution could never be fully determined or realized, but this isn't a shortcoming that is unique to a libertarian legal system.
HawkHead wrote:Is infringing on someone elses Liberty or ending it in death desrve an equal punishment?
See above.
Is the person who kills first just exercising their Liberty to terminate someone else?
Is this a serious question? (That is a serious question.)
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby HawkHead » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:59 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
HawkHead wrote:What should be the penalty for someone destroying someone elses property in a Libertarian world?
Restitution of the victim or the victim's estate is the just resolution for a situation in which a crime has been committed. It's possible that a crime could be so catastrophic or chaotic that restitution could never be fully determined or realized, but this isn't a shortcoming that is unique to a libertarian legal system.
HawkHead wrote:Is infringing on someone elses Liberty or ending it in death desrve an equal punishment?
See above.
Is the person who kills first just exercising their Liberty to terminate someone else?
Is this a serious question? (That is a serious question.)


These are all serious questions. You seem to be so worried about the Government infringing on your Liberty.

If you destroy my property you must put me back exactly in the place I was before the "event" that destroyed my property.

If I am injuried by your act and I am disabled in some way I should be able to hurt you and disable you accoringly to equal match the loss of Liberty.

It would seem to me if Liberty is the most important value one can have the termination of someone and their Liberty can only be resolved by terminating the person who killed the other.

Which leads to a logistical nightmare. The person that kills the killer has then ended someone elses Liberty and should be put to death. Maybe the person would have to push a button to commence their own death?
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby HawkHead » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:19 pm

What if you kill more than one person? Can the Liberty lost ever be "repaid" by one person?

So many questions......
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:25 pm

HawkHead wrote:Which leads to a logistical nightmare. The person that kills the killer has then ended someone elses Liberty and should be put to death. Maybe the person would have to push a button to commence their own death?
Do you really think that this is a logical conclusion to the legal/penal system that I have described?
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:26 pm

HawkHead wrote:So many questions......
... and they are all stupid.
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Re: West, Texas explosion and zoning

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:30 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
HawkHead wrote:So many questions......
... and they are all stupid.

There are no stupid questions (although there certainly are stupid people.)
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