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Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:14 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote: Even if the Pope changed the law now I imagine there would be questionable legal standing to extradite for a past crime. Not sure of the legal systems of the Vatican, but Archbishop Wesolowski could probably put up a strong fight against any extradition.

Not true. Since the Vatican has no extradition treaties with any other nation, there would be no violation of any treaty or another nation's laws.

The pope could just render the wanted man and deport him. You've heard of renditions, haven't you? They might violate the U.S. Constitution, but that doesn't apply to an absolute monarchy.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:36 pm

I'm going to ignore the discussion on Pope Francis's actions and statements for the moment since they aren't really pertinent to the topic.

As has been stated, he is the Vatican and can in fact probably order anyone he want's out of the city. However there is still a legal system in place that he would be wise to follow if he has any hope of effectively running the church in the future. I'd also postulate that the fact that there is a legal system in place would lead me to believe that any action he takes that goes against current laws would be subject to a legal challenge of some sort. Obviously I'm not an expert on Vatican law so that's just a guess.

More importantly though I think if he wants to show that the church itself is going to start dealing with it's child abuse problem he has to show that the legal system of the Vatican is capable of enforcing it's laws. Acting unilaterally will not do that.

Now it's completely possible that the church is indeed up to it's old tricks, but given that this investigation appears to be less than a year old, I would postulate right now doing the right thing and doing the same old thing are probably going to look a lot alike.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:44 pm

What would be the consequence of the pope violating Vatican law? He can't be impeached. Poisoned by the Curia, maybe.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:45 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:More importantly though I think if he wants to show that the church itself is going to start dealing with it's child abuse problem he has to show that the legal system of the Vatican is capable of enforcing it's laws. Acting unilaterally will not do that.
Fair enough. And I will ever-so-happily change my tune if and when that legal system actually gets around to punishing these serial child molesters. But I would also suggest that one of the ways legal systems prove their worth is through cooperatation with other legal systems. If other countries already have enough evidence gathered to proceed with a trial, what on Earth is taking the Vatican so long to start doing something?
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby wack wack » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:53 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:... the changes he has made or will make should be discounted.
What changes has he made? All he's done is TALK.


He lives in a guest house instead of the papal penthouse. Doesn't he drive his own little beater around town rather than take the limo? He's wearing common sandals rather than custom made leather loafers.

These may seem insignificant to you, but it is quite significant to those who believe. Gotta walk the walk if the talk is going to mean anything.

Ideas have to change before actions. I think the pope expressing radically different beliefs for the church is doing something.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: But I would also suggest that one of the ways legal systems prove their worth is through cooperatation with other legal systems. If other countries already have enough evidence gathered to proceed with a trial, what on Earth is taking the Vatican so long to start doing something?


Good question. The Vatican has two separate investigations ongoing which I would assume have been going on since around August when the ambassador was recalled. Not sure how long prior to that the Dominican Republic was investigating him but I assume a bit longer. Poland's investigation seems to be more recent.

How long would you expect an investigation into a high ranking government official to take when they are accused of crimes in two separate countries, possibly over a long time frame?
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:32 pm

wack wack wrote:These may seem insignificant to you, but it is quite significant to those who believe.

{emphasis added}

Right. This is what is called PR.

The biggest crisis facing the Church -- ignoring the fact that they're a longstanding, filthy rich, criminal conspiracy -- is people becoming disillusioned with the Church because, y'know, they're a longstanding, filthy rich, criminal conspiracy. So rather than actually DOING something like, oh, I dunno... ending their longstanding, filthy rich, criminal conspiracy, the Pope has donned a cheaper pair of shoes and is castigating others for being rich and immoral. Well played, Your Holiness. God forbid that believers actually follow the teachings they purport to believe in and turn their back on the longstanding, filthy rich, criminal conspiracy they've pledged their souls to, right?

Francis Di Domizio wrote:How long would you expect an investigation into a high ranking government official to take when they are accused of crimes in two separate countries, possibly over a long time frame?
I honestly have no idea. But isn't the normal procedure to wait until you've already got a pretty good case before you ask for extradition?
Last edited by Prof. Wagstaff on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:How long would you expect an investigation into a high ranking government official to take when they are accused of crimes in two separate countries, possibly over a long time frame?
I honestly have no idea. But isn't the normal procedure to wait until you've already got a pretty good case before you ask for extradition?


Ask Julian Assange, but my guess would be it depends on if you need to question the accused?

Based on the article there seems to be some confusion/disagreement as to whether Poland actually requested extradition or just asked for the Vatican's position on the legal status of the accused. There is no mention of the Dominican Republic requesting extradition at all.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:12 am

I am tired.
I think this a good read.
http://ncronline.org/node/67786/
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:01 am

Vatican officials face U.N. on sexual abuse

The Vatican officials seem to be saying the right things, but let's see if they do the right things.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:27 am

While the pope says go easy on gays, not everyone got the memo.

Man says Las Cruces Catholic church won't let him play piano after he got married to man
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:46 am

My perception is that the social justice narrative has been pinched off. This is too bad as a centuries/millenniums old human collective around a religion, generally about good, should be able to hold onto this notion. I do not think that this has much to do with the festering effects of abuse and scandal, although this is important given the reboot around justice. I suspect that the talk of economic inequality and justice has stirred the pot of the 'money changers', and I do not think that they like this. As is often the case today - the dark hand of moneyed power gets done what is in moneyed power's interest.
Discourse managed
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:18 pm

More changes ahead. Pope Francis now says he could support gay civil unions (but not marriage).
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:10 pm

These are interesting times.
Times where those who have the courage to wrestle toward a discourse about what is good and what is just - matters.
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/13/ ... -gay-laws/

This escalating level of courage is essential too our survival as a human culture and a broadly successful species.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:32 am

Madison's conservative bishop has a different take on Pope Francis. His spin differs greatly from other commentators.

Bishop Robert Morlino: Pope Francis has made me a stronger culture warrior

Madison Catholic Bishop Robert Morlino, a staunch traditionalist with a national reputation for vigorously opposing abortion and same-sex unions, said he and Pope Francis are in sync and that the new pontiff has made him a stronger culture warrior.

In a lengthy interview with the State Journal, Morlino praised the first year of the pope’s reign, which has received widespread praise among Catholics for what is perceived as a new tone and style, and greater compassion for the marginalized.

Yet Morlino cautioned that reporters and people with agendas have “outrageously misinterpreted” some of the pontiff’s comments, and he said Pope Francis actually is causing him to speak out even more forcefully on the church’s opposition to abortion, artificial contraception, stem cell research and homosexual acts.
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