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Capitol arrests

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:24 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote: "Disturbing the peace"

I agree. The Capitol Cops were disturbing the peaceful sing-in.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:45 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote: "Disturbing the peace"

I agree. The Capitol Cops were disturbing the peaceful sing-in.


I've heard the singing in the videos. You and I have very different definitions of peaceful music.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Donald » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:53 am

I think both sides are a bit screwy, but I side far more with the singers. There was nothing threatening or intimidating about 15-30 people singing over the noon hour. The idea that Walker's palace guard needs to make patriotic Americans go through a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense when it was a small, routine sing-a-long protest is ridiculous. I thought Republicans were supposed to be for freedom and against large tax wasting bureaucracy. They might put that into practice at the Capitol Building. The police actions are causing a minor protest annoyance to become a threatening and intimidating gathering.

Still, I recognize the need to have some regulation over the use of space in the Capitol Building, especially when there are competing events. I realize the Singers have been more than willing to let others share the space or have it completely, but some minimal permitting system is reasonable.

I guess the argument is over what is reasonable, given the First Amendment. In the end, I suppose, courts may decide. But before that you would hope things could come down to common sense.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:23 am

Donald wrote:I guess the argument is over what is reasonable, given the First Amendment. In the end, I suppose, courts may decide. But before that you would hope things could come down to common sense.


I feel like both sides have painted themselves into corners. Walker and his palace guard, of course, have the power to determine space-use regulations and police policy so they are responsible for the present state of affairs being different from the state of affairs two years ago. They have done this willfully while pretending it's not their doing, which is offensive to common sense, but that's nothing new with this gang. Now if they back down they'll think they look weak. In reality they'd only look reasonable, waste less money, and exemplify small-government behavior as Donald noted. (Would they be acting this way if gun-carriers were parading around in the capitol every noon? Good question.)

One of the MPD officers interviewed in the Madison newspaper recently pointed out drawing a hard line like this is generally poor tactics, and if keeping order is your goal you'd have to agree based on the results we see here. Keeping order is not the real goal, then.

At the same time the singers have painted themselves into a corner by refusing to get a daily permit. If they start taking out permits, they'll look like they capitulated. Plainly -- and not covertly -- their purpose is to object to everything Walker ever did and to keep the issue alive. They are succeeding on their own terms.

So the question is what's the Walker faction's goal? Nothing I've read, and nobody I've spoken to, has come up with any kind of satisfactory answer. I'm thinking fundamentally it's the same as the singers' goal: to keep the issue alive -- in this case, showing contempt and hatred for their opposition, whether it's singers or people opposed to a mine or anybody else. It's certainly not about a permit. You couldn't write up a permit application that would cover everything that goes on in the capitol around noon hour, which is leaderless, unplanned, and unpredictable.

And that's where it all stands. Common sense isn't focusing on ending the demonstrations. It's focused on each side maintaining it's position along a line that's been drawn. Hence the standoff.

The court part is going to be interesting.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:09 am

snoqueen wrote:So the question is what's the Walker faction's goal? Nothing I've read, and nobody I've spoken to, has come up with any kind of satisfactory answer. I'm thinking fundamentally it's the same as the singers' goal: to keep the issue alive -- in this case, showing contempt and hatred for their opposition, whether it's singers or people opposed to a mine or anybody else.


I think this is key to whole thing. There really doesn't seem to be a tactical advantage to going after the singers at this point. Up until the arrests started, the singers were a Madison feel good story, but I doubt you would be able to find 1 person in 10 outside of Madison who knew they were still there, much less cared. If Walker wanted to bring the issue back to the public eye, he needs to first wait till closer to the elections, and second, make sure that they are painted in a negative light. You don't do that by arresting people for failing to file a permit to gather. People might think the rule itself is fine (after all you need a permit for most organized gathering on public grounds), but far fewer would think arresting violators was needed, especially with the tactics currently being used.

Had anyone with even a miniscule amount of PR knowledge been tasked with keeping the issue alive in a positive light for Walker all they would have done is start planning regular show events involving Walker or Vos or other legislative leaders in the Rotunda at noon, and then wait for Captain Segway and his band of merry morons to do their thing on video.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby rabble » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:12 am

snoqueen wrote:At the same time the singers have painted themselves into a corner by refusing to get a daily permit. If they start taking out permits, they'll look like they capitulated. Plainly -- and not covertly -- their purpose is to object to everything Walker ever did and to keep the issue alive. They are succeeding on their own terms.

The thing is, there's two reasons to not want a permit. The "free speech" argument that one shouldn't need to request permission to do this, and the "we can make you pay" argument wherein the state is allowed to charge you any amount it wants for damage you may or may not have done, without process of appeal.

The history of the Walker administration would make me leery of putting my name on what would basically be a blank check.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Zoti Bemba » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:27 pm

rabble wrote:The thing is, there's two reasons to not want a permit. The "free speech" argument that one shouldn't need to request permission to do this, and the "we can make you pay" argument wherein the state is allowed to charge you any amount it wants for damage you may or may not have done, without process of appeal.

And just to bring it full circle, apparently one of the reasons a permit can be denied according to the current rules is failure to pay damages assessed under past permits. It makes your head spin, doesn't it? The easiest way to oust the Solidarity Singers would be to get them to agree that they needed a permit to be there.

david cohen wrote:This has been discussed before and they are definitely Capitol Police officers, not State Patrol.

I'm not wondering if they are Capitol Police (which is part of the State Patrol?), I'm wondering if there has been some change in who is being recruited and how they are being trained. That pile on still looks very weird to me; part of that is the way the other officers jumped right in (or on), like they were trained as a team on that maneuver.

The way the instigating officer kind of swatted the protester's hands and reached for his collar(?) also seemed weird. When I've seen cops on State Street it always seems to me that they take great pains not to touch people they're talking to or to violate their personal space. Admittedly I haven't seen many arrests as they were taking place.

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I've heard the singing in the videos. You and I have very different definitions of peaceful music.

For instance? Compared to some rap or punk music or the stuff they'll be blaring around the Capitol Square this weekend (and here I mean volume, not lyrics) I'd say the Singalong is downright tame.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Zoti Bemba wrote:I'm not wondering if they are Capitol Police (which is part of the State Patrol?), I'm wondering if there has been some change in who is being recruited and how they are being trained. That pile on still looks very weird to me; part of that is the way the other officers jumped right in (or on), like they were trained as a team on that maneuver.

The way the instigating officer kind of swatted the protester's hands and reached for his collar(?) also seemed weird. When I've seen cops on State Street it always seems to me that they take great pains not to touch people they're talking to or to violate their personal space. Admittedly I haven't seen many arrests as they were taking place.


1) State Patrol and Capitol Police are seperate entities with very different areas of responsibility.

2) If I remember correctly (it's been years since I looked into it and honestly I don't care enough about the answer to google it now) the Capitol Police recruit from people who have put themselves through a police training program at a tech college, rather then recruit and do initial trainning themselves.

3) It looks they trained as a team because they most likely have. If not as a specific team, they've most likely trained to work with other officers in that manner. The idea is all officers have the same training and understanding of procedure so that when one officer needs assistance every officer has a reasonable expectation of what the other officers will do.

4) Different police departments have different rules and proceedures they follow. MPD and University Police are probably two of the more cautious departments in the area, while it's safe to say the Cap police aren't

Zoti Bemba wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:I've heard the singing in the videos. You and I have very different definitions of peaceful music.

For instance? Compared to some rap or punk music or the stuff they'll be blaring around the Capitol Square this weekend (and here I mean volume, not lyrics) I'd say the Singalong is downright tame.


Well, having everyone in key would be a good start. What is peaceful music is subjective though. I generally am lulled into a peaceful sleep by the mellow sounds of NIN or Flogging Molly. Then again I have unpleasent flashbacks to my childhood when Kumbia, This Land is Your Land or Free to Be start up.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:22 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Had anyone with even a miniscule amount of PR knowledge been tasked with keeping the issue alive in a positive light for Walker all they would have done is start planning regular show events involving Walker or Vos or other legislative leaders in the Rotunda at noon, and then wait for Captain Segway and his band of merry morons to do their thing on video.

Here we go
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/29/1234774/-Wisconsin-Guv-Walker-s-Newest-Bizarre-Scheme-to-Stop-Singers
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:29 pm

At what point will we see someone "crash" a permitted event in an attempt to cause mayhem or damage, the costs for which would be billed to the permit holder?

edit: COULD be billed.
No doubt there will selective enforcement of that provision.
Last edited by jman111 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:39 pm

... it's a bizarre concept on it's face: required to get a permit from the people you are protesting.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:51 pm

http://www.doa.state.wi.us/index.asp?locid=163

On this page, click (on the right) "State Facility Access Policy" for the regulations governing permit holders. Page 15 of the pdf says

"As explained in Sections II-(D) through II-(F) of this Policy, any individual or organization using the any
State facility, including, the Capitol or Capitol lawn (State Capitol Park) will be responsible for all suits,
damages, claims, or liabilities due to personal injury or damage to or loss of property and for the cost of
any damages incurred as a result of its event or exhibit. While it is not generally required, it is
strongly recommended that the sponsors of Capitol events or exhibits obtain liability insurance."

(sorry about formatting)

Nobody in their right mind would sign that thing for a singalong. You'd be in court for the next five years on some trumped-up charge while the state pays its expensive lawyers to drag things out and make it expensive for you.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:27 pm

jman111 wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:Had anyone with even a miniscule amount of PR knowledge been tasked with keeping the issue alive in a positive light for Walker all they would have done is start planning regular show events involving Walker or Vos or other legislative leaders in the Rotunda at noon, and then wait for Captain Segway and his band of merry morons to do their thing on video.

Here we go
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/29/1234774/-Wisconsin-Guv-Walker-s-Newest-Bizarre-Scheme-to-Stop-Singers


Not sure I'd blame Walker for that one directly

I'm actually surprised it took this long for something like this to manifest. This won't do as much from a PR standpoint as having a 20some college student yelling at Walker while he's presenting to the Special Olympians. Unless of course the camera crew does decide to crash a bunch of old ladies singing politely in the rotunda. An event that wouldn't shock me in the least.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby wack wack » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:36 pm

Blaska didn't last here and he won't last in the rotunda.
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Re: Capitol arrests

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Here's what Blaska says:

The form asks for an insurance carrier or bond. Leave it blank. You don’t have one and you don’t need one. You are not taming lions, you are not juggling live chainsaws.


Maybe he's OK with that. Not everyone would agree.
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