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Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby snoqueen » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:53 am

I think he's more or less admitting training doesn't make any difference at all, and it's more a matter of attitude. (I'm not sure I disagree, in a way.)

We can all agree there are way too many gun accidents -- of many kinds, from shooting oneself in the leg to your kids getting ahold of loaded guns and shooting each other. And apparently training doesn't make a dent in this tendency.

This means too many hopelessly irresponsible, bad-attitude people have guns and are managing that responsibility poorly, endangering not only themselves but the innocent and uninvolved.

Still, we are supposed to believe no changes in public policy are warranted and the status quo is the best we can do.

That's an indefensible position. Even if you believe only in the smallest, most ineffectual government possible, one of its responsibilities has to be protecting the lives of its citizens. In fact, one of its responsibilities has to be protecting its citizens from one another, specifically protecting the innocent and harmless from those who would do harm due to those unchangeable, innate bad attitudes.

If the government's job is to protect the people from armed invaders from outside, why is it supposed to ignore armed irresponsible bad actors from within? The end result is the same: people get shot and die, people who in no way deserved it.

That's irrational and ignores the attitude problem that can be found in any group of people regardless of their other demographic characteristics or where they come from.

I'm not proposing any kind of solution at this point, I am just insisting we have grounds to agree there exists a specific problem which has its roots in a particular tendency of some people, a tendency we might refer to as attitude.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:22 pm

Sno, if you believe it's ONLY the government's job to protect against armed invaders then you're going to be sadly disappointed. The police can help, but it is an unreasonable expectation that they'll always be there in a timely manner when the need arises. If you're rich, like Michael Bloomberg, you can afford to have armed security with you everywhere you go and to build a home that is a fortress that would require a near military-like operation to penetrate. The rest of the 99% of people have to assume some responsibility for their own security.

As for the question people are raising about whether if you "fuck up" with your gun can they take your license away--- yes. If it rises to the level of a felony. Refer to the statutes: Chapter 941.20?"Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon." Some of that is a Class A misdemeanor and others are felonies. If one is convicted of a felony your right to possess firearms is removed and your concealed carry license is revoked.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:36 pm

Dangerousman wrote:As for the question people are raising about whether if you "fuck up" with your gun can they take your license away--- yes. If it rises to the level of a felony. Refer to the statutes: Chapter 941.20?"Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon." Some of that is a Class A misdemeanor and others are felonies. If one is convicted of a felony your right to possess firearms is removed and your concealed carry license is revoked.

Well thanks, that makes me feel a lot better. The only way to get your concealed carry permit taken away is to get your right to bear arms revoked completely. Go ahead and balance your pistol on the toilet paper dispenser all you want.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Detritus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:38 pm

rabble wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:As for the question people are raising about whether if you "fuck up" with your gun can they take your license away--- yes. If it rises to the level of a felony. Refer to the statutes: Chapter 941.20?"Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon." Some of that is a Class A misdemeanor and others are felonies. If one is convicted of a felony your right to possess firearms is removed and your concealed carry license is revoked.

Well thanks, that makes me feel a lot better. The only way to get your concealed carry permit taken away is to get your right to bear arms revoked completely. Go ahead and balance your pistol on the toilet paper dispenser all you want.

No, no, this is great. Prosecute all "doing something stupid while armed" cases as reckless endangerment and we're golden.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:47 pm

Detritus wrote:No, no, this is great. Prosecute all "doing something stupid while armed" cases as reckless endangerment and we're golden.

Except we all know that doesn't happen.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby snoqueen » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:58 pm

Ya know, if I am in the next stall from this dingbat who balances his gun on the toilet paper dispenser, and I get shot as a result, my own gun isn't going to do me one bit of good.

I am going to start calling this the "magic guns" theory: the belief carrying guns all over makes us, collectively, safer. Your gun won't help a lot if you're next door to that toilet stall, or anywhere near somebody with an attitude like that.

I have heard the "police aren't always there" argument enough times to realize it is a distraction. Some of the most troubling gun deaths have nothing to do with police absence. Many are within the home, and the victims are little kids who couldn't be expected to call the police in any case. Other fatalities unrelated to police absence/presence among adults are due to stupid or careless gun handling, showing off, road rage, and the like. These aren't random unavoidable collateral damage justifiable by political intransigence, they are real humans who did not have to die. Perhaps they are also examples of the attitude problem Dman and I both acknowledge, but I refuse to believe we have to passively accept them as a messy fact of life and not seek and try measures by which the numbers could be reduced.

As I write, I am listening to an NPR interview commemorating the Sandy Hook shootings a year ago today. According to this report, 194 children in the US died due to gunshots last year. This is thought to be an underestimate because there is no uniform national reporting mechanism. Of these kids, 127 were killed at home, and some 30 more at someone else's home.*

Now, I realize every gun death is not first degree murder. But it seems people continue to refuse to safely store their guns, which would be a pretty simple first step toward a safer society:

in 72 cases in which a child or teen pulled the trigger, only four adults have been convicted. According to the nonpartisan Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which tracks state regulations closely, only 14 states and the District of Columbia have strong laws imposing criminal liability for negligent storage of guns with respect to children...


(Laws people apparently refuse to follow.)

So much for the idea messing up with your gun results in significant sanctions, even if what you did was totally avoidable and ended in a child's death.

-----
*"...those numbers don't capture the full scope of the problem, due to inconsistencies in how states report shootings, and because the gun lobby long ago helped kill off federal funding for gun violence research. Our media-based analysis of child gun deaths also understates the problem, as numerous such killings likely never appear in the news. New research by two Boston surgeons drawing on pediatric records suggests that the real toll is higher: They've found about 500 deaths of children and teens per year, and an additional 7,500 hospitalizations from gunshot wounds."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... nniversary

That link is the source for both quotes in this post. The story is clearly written and worth a click.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:15 am

Personally, I don't see why anyone would choose to carry a firearm of the sort that will fire when dropped. There are plenty of excellent guns that will not do that. My Glocks can be dropped from 500 feet and they will not fire. The only way a Glock will fire is by pulling the trigger, or, apparently if you're former police chief Richard Williams, cooking it in your oven-- which really has nothing to do with the gun at that point and everything to do with heating the ammunition to the point of detonation.

I don't think the "gun lobby" has any problem with legitimate and objective research. But it was pretty clear that there was a lot of funding going to faux and spurious "research" that was only intended to promote an anti-gun agenda.

Personally, I find the most unbiased information from the Bureau of Justice Statistics which certainly is not without funding.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:31 am

jman111 wrote:
Detritus wrote:No, no, this is great. Prosecute all "doing something stupid while armed" cases as reckless endangerment and we're golden.

Except we all know that doesn't happen.


Even if it did happen may not result in many felony convictions.

I don't enjoy being around people who don't use guns safely any more than you do, or any more than I enjoy being around people who do stupid things while driving. Both are a menace. I guarantee you I see a yahoo at the gun range every so often, but I see several yahoos driving the Beltline every time I'm on it. My worry is proportional to the degree the odds are against me. I've never had to dodge a bullet at the gun range, but can't say the same is true, figuratively speaking, on the Beltline. I'm sure your experience is similar.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby kurt_w » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:46 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I've never had to dodge a bullet at the gun range, but can't say the same is true, figuratively speaking, on the Beltline. I'm sure your experience is similar.

I've lived various places without owning a car. It can be done, but it's difficult (most places) and makes all kinds of ordinary tasks (e.g., buying groceries) far more complicated. Nowadays, even though I mostly ride the bus to work, owning a car makes my life easier in innumerable ways, little and big.

By contrast, I've never felt hindered in life by not owning a gun. I understand that some people enjoy shooting guns, or collecting guns, and that's nice.

But car ownership has immense practical benefits in the way that gun ownership, for almost all gun owners, does not.

Meanwhile, auto fatalities in the US have been dropping for decades, while gun fatalities are rising and will likely outnumber auto fatalities within the next 2 years.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:19 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Go ahead and join that camp and smoke whatever they're smoking if you think that would ever happen. The frickin' Equal Rights Amendment couldn't get ratified by the 3/4's of the states, so you think repealing the 2nd Amendment has even a microscopic chance?
You criticizing someone is priceless particularly because your whole theory is flawed.

You say that everyone should be able to buy a gun/guns with almost 0 regulation, which naturally assumes they must all be, or usually be sane, is based on your other stated view that all these random people need guns because you never know when a random incident involving any other randomly insane person, also w-a gun, is going to be around the next corner.

In short, your idea of preventing gun violence is a twisted form of "regulating" insane people w-guns by shooting them, instead of regulating insane people from obtaining guns, by allowing easy access to guns for random people you've never met without checking whether or not they might be the next insane person you often talk about, but will likely never encounter for the rest of your life.

That's kind of a self-defeating theory you're dangling there, Dangler...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTGmTrQXrwg
Last edited by jonnygothispen on Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby snoqueen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:55 pm

It's easy to avoid the yahoos on the beltline: drive some other route. I don't go on the beltline at all due to the very yahoos you complain about. Problem solved.

I can't do this with regard to guns being carried by yahoos because I cannot see them. Problem not solved at all.

Not a perfect analogy, but a revealing one.

...your idea of preventing gun violence is a twisted form of "regulating" insane people w-guns by shooting them...


Well reasoned. If a) there's a significant yahoo gun faction out there, and if b) the best -- or maybe only -- way to "regulate" them is shoot them (or leave them to shoot one another), this whole system is not working very well.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:27 pm

snoqueen wrote:It's easy to avoid the yahoos on the beltline: drive some other route. I don't go on the beltline at all due to the very yahoos you complain about. Problem solved.

I can't do this with regard to guns being carried by yahoos because I cannot see them. Problem not solved at all.

Not a perfect analogy, but a revealing one.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Cars are slower than bullets and you can see them coming. "Dodge a bullet" is a nice phrase but I don't know of anyone who has literally moved out of a fired bullet's trajectory.

The slower visible ones have licenses that are revokable, usually on a point system. The faster concealed ones have a license that can't be taken away unless the licensee commits a felony.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:23 am

snoqueen wrote: ...Not a perfect analogy, but a revealing one...
http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorill ... tac,30860/
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:26 pm

snoqueen wrote:I think he's more or less admitting training doesn't make any difference at all, and it's more a matter of attitude. (I'm not sure I disagree, in a way.)

We can all agree there are way too many gun accidents -- of many kinds, from shooting oneself in the leg to your kids getting ahold of loaded guns and shooting each other. And apparently training doesn't make a dent in this tendency.


Not quite. I'm not saying training doesn't make any difference-- just not as much of a difference as you might think it does. Accidental gun deaths in the USA have decreased steadily for over a century. So something is making a dent in it. A large part of that is probably due to training. (And the fact that hunters are required to wear blaze orange during some hunting seasons, and many will wear it even when not required.) My earlier point was that there probably was no lack of training in a great number of the gun accidents that still occur. The proper attitude was the thing that was lacking.

I know of a couple of guys who recently had unintentional discharges of their guns, one shot himself in the hand and the other put a hole in his apartment wall. Both were trained and could immediately identify the "safety rules" they violated. They also knew that what they did was boneheaded--- i.e., failure to have the proper diligence (attitude and attention) to the rules.
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jman111 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:42 pm

Did your boneheaded acquaintances face charges? If so, what were the consequences?
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