MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Monday, September 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 45.0° F  Fair
Collapse Photo Bar

A comparison (another gun thread)

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby DCB » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:52 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:
kurt_w wrote:If firearms were regulated as strictly as cars, it is likely that there would still be some coffins in the above chart, but fewer than in our present, lightly regulated environment.

Unlike driving, gun ownership is a Constitutional right. Pesky, I know, but true.

We rolled right over the 4th amendment (probably some others) after 9/11. I don't see why the 2nd should be any less restricted in the interests of public safety.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby kurt_w » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:00 pm

I'm more baffled about why Ned first asked for a comparison between guns and cars, and then when I complied by providing such a comparison, he decided that comparing guns and cars is invalid.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5083
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby jman111 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:43 pm

kurt_w wrote:I'm more baffled about why Ned first asked for a comparison between guns and cars, and then when I complied by providing such a comparison, he decided that comparing guns and cars is invalid.

I call bullshit. You, of all people, know the MO.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3000
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby kurt_w » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:05 pm

jman111 wrote:
kurt_w wrote:I'm more baffled about why Ned first asked for a comparison between guns and cars, and then when I complied by providing such a comparison, he decided that comparing guns and cars is invalid.

I call bullshit. You, of all people, know the MO.

OK, I admit it. The bafflement was, er, just a wee bit exaggerated.

DUCK! HERE COMES ANOTHER FLYING GOALPOST!

:wink:
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5083
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby snoqueen » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:57 pm

...strip out the suicides and gang bangers and you have a different story.


We talked about the suicides already, how many of them might be prevented by more difficult access to guns. I'm thinking in particular of teens, whose impulse control is not fully developed but who are quite capable of shooting themselves, and do so. You ought to retract the comment about disregarding suicides, because it's not a good reason to maintain and improve the ready availability of guns.

We haven't said anything about your "gang bangers." You are treating these as if they are non-humans.

First off, gang members shoot the innocent, including babies, little children in parks, and people sitting on their porch minding their own business. Those deaths are surely not too unimportant to notice.

Factor out those, and you still have plenty of black-on-black violence. (Yes, that's what you mean and we all know it.) Are we to have no compassion for these people's families and loved ones? Are these dead people not human, nor deserving of a better lot in life and more to live for than drugs or status among their immediate peers?

The brightest and most well-meaning people in the black community itself have not been able to solve black-on-black violence and we're not going to solve it here. But to dismiss this category of dead people as roadkill is not doing a service to whatever point you are trying to make.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11503
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Bludgeon » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:59 pm

Kurt W wrote:Here is the number of people killed by guns in the USA -- accidentally and intentionally -- since 9-11. We are killing ourselves at a rate of one 9-11 every 34 days.

Included in this list:

illegal guns
people shot by the police
inner city crime

You take the total number of people killed by guns in 2011 -- that is, 32,163, then you skim gunpolicy.org's "data" allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll...

...all the way to the bottom and notice, hey wait in that same year the number of people killed unintentionally by guns is only 851. Being that legal gun ownership is what ALL this hyperbole is meant to reflect upon (after all we've already banned illegal guns - they are illegal), what are we to make of the fact that among legal gun owners, accidental deaths make up only 2.5% of all gun deaths annually?

Where do you get off using criminal gun activity (97.5% of all gun activity) against legal gun owners? You're saying, "thugs are shooting people, so you innocent folks over here should not be able to have a gun." How does that hurt the criminals? How does that help the innocent people? Have a little bit of sense, man.

Honestly you've got a false argument on both sides of your little statement above. Show a little academic pride, if nothing else.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:00 am

Bludgeon wrote:You're saying, "thugs are shooting people, so you innocent folks over here should not be able to have a gun."


I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying anything even close to this.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby rabble » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:04 am

Near as I can figure out, if we can reduce the number of people killed by guns each year by 851, we'll all be fine because the rest of the people killed by guns, it will be with illegal guns or criminal activity, or other stuff that's okay. Because we're only worried about people killed unintentionally by guns, I think.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:05 am

To summarize, Bludge says white people need guns to protect themselves from black people.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19888
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby kurt_w » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:27 am

Bludgeon wrote:Where do you get off using criminal gun activity (97.5% of all gun activity) against legal gun owners? You're saying, "thugs are shooting people, so you innocent folks over here should not be able to have a gun." How does that hurt the criminals? How does that help the innocent people? Have a little bit of sense, man.

Honestly you've got a false argument on both sides of your little statement above. Show a little academic pride, if nothing else.


I already said, back on the first page of this thread, that I'm not talking about the political or legal debate. I'm just pointing out the facts about the rate at which we Americans are killing ourselves and each other with guns. As I mentioned back on the first page, it works out to one 9/11 every 34 days.

Some of those are accidents. Some are suicides. Some are murders. Some are self-defense.

A few of the victims might be people who you or I feel are "better off dead." But overall, it seems to me that this astonishingly high rate of gun deaths is a major, ongoing, slow-motion tragedy.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5083
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:39 am

Alright, well, say you're the emperor, your word is law. What are you going to do about it? Some are: murders, accidents, suicides, - quick note, most of them are illegal, suicide or homicide. Not much left after that, really.

So what is it you would be able to do that would make some odd 30,000 people a year not want to kill themselves or other people? Are you going to take away illegal guns? - How are you going to do that? - Go door to door in the slums of Chicago, Birmingham, Detroit, Los Angeles? - Just go round up all their guns? I mean assuming you get rid of all the legal guns, what does that do to stop the illegal ones, and what does that do to counteract the sheer criminal will that really drives all these numbers?

Just knock on every door and be like, "Hello, Hispanic persons, we are the police and we're just here to profile you by searching your house, in every room, checking for drugs and tearing apart your furniture with knives to make sure you don't have any illegal weapons or drugs." - ??

I mean, what is going to work? You get to have your wish, your word is law, but you might as well make it illegal for the sky to rain because it's a level of crime that can't be affected by wishful thinking.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:54 am

Bludgeon wrote:what does that do to stop the illegal ones


I'm not quite sure what the number of "illegal" guns are, but they once started out being legal. We manufacture guns at a staggering rate. There is a black market for guns, but those involved are not making the guns.

We are a society obsessed with guns like no other country and I don't know what we can do to stop that obsession.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4843
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:27 am

Bludgeon wrote:Just knock on every door and be like, "Hello, Hispanic persons, we are the police and we're just here to profile you by searching your house, in every room, checking for drugs and tearing apart your furniture with knives to make sure you don't have any illegal weapons or drugs." - ??


Are you going to knock on every door, or are you going to profile? can't do both.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby snoqueen » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:53 am

Where do you get off using criminal gun activity (97.5% of all gun activity) against legal gun owners?


One way to make use of this statistic would be to say we need to get rid of 97.5% of all guns.

That would be oversimplifying, but it expresses the scale of the problem very well. Perhaps another way to say it would be only 2.5% of gun activity is legal, so why are we making all these laws to protect that paltry 2.5%?

That was your statistic, Bludgie, and you need to tell us why we're expected to go to such lengths to protect 2.5% while allowing 97.5% to take advantage of the situation. It sure doesn't make sense to me.

In your arguments I'm seeing a lot of reliance on the notion the 97.5% are black and Hispanic so they don't really matter. I find that highly offensive and you need to explain it, justify it, or at least admit it. Can you seriously argue you are so much more important than those "other" people that even though they're hit far more heavily by this rolling tragedy, your preferences come first?

Incidentally, I find all these numbers pretty shaky, but they were the numbers you brought in.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11503
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby DCB » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:09 am

snoqueen wrote:
Where do you get off using criminal gun activity (97.5% of all gun activity) against legal gun owners?


One way to make use of this statistic would be to say we need to get rid of 97.5% of all guns.

The converse argument would be:
30,000 deaths is acceptable trade-off for our unrestricted 2nd amendment rights.
By extension, we should be willing to accept 10 9/11-scale terrorist attacks every year as the price for unrestricted 1st and 4th amendment rights.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar