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Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Thu May 01, 2014 4:44 pm

Bludgeon wrote: Ukraine has nothing to do with Bosnia.
The parallels are astonishing, we've only scratched the surface. The Orthodox-Catholic divide is back. Another dictator stirring-up nationalism. Very much a replay.

Bludgeon wrote: Why stop at Milosivec? Why not compare Russia to the Third Reich?
We've already gone over the comparison of Hitler protecting ethnic Germans in "the near abroad." The detailed and extensive similarity of Putin to Milosevic are more apt, both in action and propaganda messaging.

Bludgeon wrote: Talk about Kiev, or you're not talking.
We disagree on the facts of Kiev. For sake of discussion, I accept your characterization. Nothing changes. Ukraine is not a province of Russia, it is a weak neighbor. Russian aggression is not justified by events in Ukraine, I am puzzled why you can't see this, but I have no interest in attempting to change such a mind.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Thu May 01, 2014 9:46 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: Ukraine has nothing to do with Bosnia.

The parallels are astonishing, we've only scratched the surface. The Orthodox-Catholic divide is back. Another dictator stirring-up nationalism. Very much a replay.

You know Huckleby, that sounds like a great movie script, but it doesn't describe what's going on in Ukraine in the least. All that nonsense about Russia is besides the point, it's just a kitchen sink propaganda narrative meant to obscure the eyesores in the balderdash of all this western prose.

It's clear you've made a lot of insinuations, but none of what you say makes any sense.

I'm saying, let's hear it. Insinuation-free, just state exactly what you think is going on and we'll see if it makes any sense or not.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Thu May 01, 2014 10:01 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I'm saying, let's hear it. Insinuation-free, just state exactly what you think is going on and we'll see if it makes any sense or not.

Many things are going on at once, there are many conflicts playing out.

The biggest story is Putin's New Russia policy, which I've explained extensively myself, and which has been documented by articles I've linked to. Read the last link of Cohen @ NY Times.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Thu May 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I'm saying, let's hear it. Insinuation-free, just state exactly what you think is going on and we'll see if it makes any sense or not.

Many things are going on at once, there are many conflicts playing out.

The biggest story is Putin's New Russia policy, which I've explained extensively myself, and which has been documented by articles I've linked to. Read the last link of Cohen @ NY Times.


The New Russia story *is* an insinuation. It's a suggestion intended to mean something. The overarching claim is that Russia desires to expand into historically regional territory. Maybe they do. How do you claim that story affects Ukraine? What is the extrapolation of all this conjecture?
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Thu May 01, 2014 10:34 pm

Bludgeon wrote:The overarching claim is that Russia desires to expand into historically regional territory. Maybe they do. How do you claim that story affects Ukraine? What is the extrapolation of all this conjecture?


There is no conjecture whatsoever. Putin made his New Russia intentions explicit. Did you read his remarks from three weeks ago? For further confirmation, see comments of Polish foreign minister I posted today. How does New Russia affect Ukraine? New Russia is most of Ukraine, a former colony that Russia is bent on reclaiming.

The extrapolation is that Russia may very well be eyeing other Russian minorities in the former Soviet Union, from Moldovia to the Baltics to Poland. This is hardly a great leap.

Personally, I think Putin's Excellent Adventure is most likely to end, and end badly in Ukraine. I don't mean a short term disaster for Russia, but Putin has taken on an albatross and dimmed Russia's prospects for the long term. How did the last Cold War work out for Russia?
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Thu May 01, 2014 10:41 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:The overarching claim is that Russia desires to expand into historically regional territory. Maybe they do. How do you claim that story affects Ukraine? What is the extrapolation of all this conjecture?


There is no conjecture whatsoever. Putin made his New Russia intentions explicit. Did you read his remarks from three weeks ago? There is conjecture. Whatever Putin's intentions, there has to be an application. You haven't stated how you think Putin's supposed intentions are being put into action. What is it you are saying is happening?


There is conjecture. Whatever Putin's intentions, there has to be an application. You haven't stated how you think Putin's supposed intentions are being put into action. What is it you are saying is happening?
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Thu May 01, 2014 10:52 pm

Bludgeon wrote:There is conjecture. Whatever Putin's intentions, there has to be an application. You haven't stated how you think Putin's supposed intentions are being put into action. What is it you are saying is happening?


Look what just happened in Crimea. Putin claimed there were no Russian troops involved in the revolution. At conclusion of operations, he concedes the obvious - Russian troops were behind the toppling.

Similar pattern occurring in Eastern Ukraine.

More explicit aggression today: Russia orders all Ukranian military personnel to leave Eastern Ukranine. This is defacto declaration of Russian sovereignty. They have the military assets massed on the border to make it stick.

The rest of New Russia to follow.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Mad Howler » Thu May 01, 2014 11:56 pm

Heating, the situation is.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/gunfire- ... raine-city

Who will benefit?
Who suffers?
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 02, 2014 12:23 am

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:There is conjecture. Whatever Putin's intentions, there has to be an application. You haven't stated how you think Putin's supposed intentions are being put into action. What is it you are saying is happening?


Look what just happened in Crimea. Putin claimed there were no Russian troops involved in the revolution. At conclusion of operations, he concedes the obvious - Russian troops were behind the toppling.

Similar pattern occurring in Eastern Ukraine.

More explicit aggression today: Russia orders all Ukranian military personnel to leave Eastern Ukranine. This is defacto declaration of Russian sovereignty. They have the military assets massed on the border to make it stick.

The rest of New Russia to follow.


But who is attacking whom? How do you differentiate the revolution in Sloviansk and Donetsk from the one in Kiev?

Yanukovych was from the Party of Regions, Turchynov from the Batkivshchyna. Party of Regions aligned with Russia; Batkivshchyna pro Europe. Kiev is in Western Ukraine, Sloviansk is in Eastern Ukraine. If anything, these are simply looking like two opposing regions within a single state, each wanting and maybe deserving different cultural identities. Turchynov just got seventeen billion dollars today. A lot of people would say that alone proves sufficient personal motivation. Point being, it's far from justified that western propagandists have sanctified the revolution in Kiev, and demonized the revolution in Eastern Ukraine.

Regardless of the separation from the Soviet Union, it's important that you understand that the relationship between Russia and even Western Ukraine is that of a kindred people. Kiev is often called "The First" Russian city - and basically it was. These kindred people weathered centuries of Mongolian domination sharing essentailly common languages and cultures.

To put it in perspective, look at the UK. Ireland and England have a much more acrimonious past than Russia and Ukraine. By comparison, Moscow and Kiev are sweethearts. In all reality, Russia and Ukraine belong together far more than Ireland and England. Eastern Ukraine belongs (and wants to be) in Russia; Eastern Ukraine neither belongs nor wants to be a part of Europe.

Furthermore, all the aggression is coming from Kiev; a city ruled by an unelected administration who has no legal authority over any part of Ukraine, least of all the east.

I see the east as simply standing up correctly against an unelected tyranny of impostors trying to steal away in the night with the keys to the kingdom. I think that's a very accurate description.

The Batkivshchyna are attacking; the west is threatening; Sloviansk, Donetsk, Russia, the East, is defending.
Last edited by Bludgeon on Fri May 02, 2014 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 02, 2014 12:26 am

Mad Howler wrote:Heating, the situation is.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/gunfire- ... raine-city

Who will benefit?
Who suffers?


The attacker is the aggressor and the defender is the attacked:

BBC wrote:Ukraine crisis: Government [Kievian] forces 'move on Sloviansk'

Ukrainian government forces are reported to have launched an operation in the city of Sloviansk.

The city is a stronghold for pro-Russian separatists who are exerting increasing control in eastern Ukraine.

News agencies report gunfire, explosions and a military helicopter firingon the outskirts of the city.

But the BBC's Sarah Rainsford has spoken to separatists at checkpoints near the city who say there is no fighting in their sectors.

Russian television channels are saying that the city is being "stormed".


Hopefully they are acting alone. Considering that neither the Ukrainian military nor the police have proven loyal to Keiv, it would not seem completely likely.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Mad Howler » Fri May 02, 2014 12:41 am

Bludgeon wrote:
Mad Howler wrote:Heating, the situation is.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/gunfire- ... raine-city

Who will benefit?
Who suffers?


The attacker is the aggressor and the defender is the attacked:

BBC wrote:Ukraine crisis: Government [Kievian] forces 'move on Sloviansk'

Ukrainian government forces are reported to have launched an operation in the city of Sloviansk.

The city is a stronghold for pro-Russian separatists who are exerting increasing control in eastern Ukraine.

News agencies report gunfire, explosions and a military helicopter firingon the outskirts of the city.

But the BBC's Sarah Rainsford has spoken to separatists at checkpoints near the city who say there is no fighting in their sectors.

Russian television channels are saying that the city is being "stormed".


Hopefully they are acting alone. Considering that neither the Ukrainian military nor the police have proven loyal to Keiv, it would not seem completely likely.


The man is no prince,
But this man did reveal his conditional intentions.
http://www.enca.com/world/putin-warns-u ... er-attacks
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 12:57 am

Bludgeon wrote:But who is attacking whom?
The conflicting claims are easily resolved in Eastern Ukraine. The aggressor is the side adamantly opposed to U.N. Peacekeeping troops. That would be Putin, who is directing the turmoil.

Bludgeon wrote:How do you differentiate the revolution in Sloviansk and Donetsk from the one in Kiev?
We disagree on the facts, this has been beaten to death. For sake of discussion, I've agreed to accept your interpretation. But do note that there was no foreign army surrounding Kiev.

Bludgeon wrote: Eastern Ukraine belongs (and wants to be) in Russia; Eastern Ukraine neither belongs nor wants to be a part of Europe.
Baloney. A free journalist (unattached to any state media) gave a balanced report from Donetsk this evening. The whole interview is worthwhile, here is excerpt:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/confront ... l-donetsk/
JUDY WOODRUFF: And you were starting to reflect the views of ordinary folks. What are they saying, the people you talk to?

SIMON DENYER: Well, I mean, there’s a whole spectrum of views.

There are people who are — who want — there are many pro-Russian, Russian-speaking Ukrainians who want to remain in Ukraine. They want to remain in a country that has European values of human rights and freedom of speech. They don’t necessarily want to be in the E.U. But they do want to be in Ukraine which is part of Europe, with links to Russia.

You know they don’t really want to have to choose. They want to get the best of both worlds. There are others who are saying that they’re being forced to choose, that they feel devalued by the people in Kiev. And they’re obviously listening to a lot of Russia propaganda. And they say well, you know, we’re Russian-speaking Ukrainians, but we’re being asked — one man said to me today: I’m having to choose what’s in my soul, whether to be a Ukrainian or a Russian, and I have chosen a Russian, because that’s what I am in my soul.

So people are taking — having to take sides, where they didn’t have to before.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And are they expressing fear?

SIMON DENYER: There is fear, yes.

I mean, I think, you know, there’s fear particularly among the people who want to remain part of Ukraine. Let’s not forget two days ago they held a rally here. They were beaten up by pro-Russian activists, whatever you — separatists, whatever you want to call them. And the police stood and watched. One or two policemen did try to stop it, but most of the police stood and watched.

So those people feel that they can’t — they can’t fly Ukrainian flags, they can’t speak the Ukrainian language, if they are Ukrainian speakers. But even if they are Russian-speaking Ukrainians, they can’t now express a view to say that they want to remain part of Ukraine. So they’re the ones who are feeling most intimidated and scared.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Stebben84 » Fri May 02, 2014 8:45 am

Bludgeon wrote:I'm saying, let's hear it. Insinuation-free


Bludgeon wrote:Hopefully they are acting alone. Considering that neither the Ukrainian military nor the police have proven loyal to Keiv, it would not seem completely likely.


And I'll bump this one for you:

Stebben84 wrote:
When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration


I noticed you put this in bold. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but you seem to believe it 100% yet the author gives no citation or justification for this comment. That's sloppy reporting to just make an assertion like that.


All along you have been making insinuations as well. Ukraine is clearly divided. I'm not sure of the populations numbers, but just because this is an east/west thing, doesn't mean it's a 50/50 split for the entire country. Putin said that they only wanted Crimea and from what we're seeing now, that was complete bullshit. They are fueling the fighting in the east and they won't stop until Ukraine is divided.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 02, 2014 9:52 am

Stebben84 wrote:Ukraine is clearly divided. I'm not sure of the populations numbers, but just because this is an east/west thing, doesn't mean it's a 50/50 split for the entire country. Putin said that they only wanted Crimea and from what we're seeing now, that was complete bullshit. They are fueling the fighting in the east and they won't stop until Ukraine is divided.


Try to understand what you are saying. An unelected government in Kiev with no legal authority, has declared Ukrainian citizens who protest this total violation of the democratic process, "terrorists". Kiev has sent police, Kiev has sent military, to assail these people who are simply upset that Ukraine's opposition party has robbed them of their president.

It's no different than if Republicans staged a riot, forced the president to flee for his life, stormed congress, held a sham vote installing a new presidential administration, and rewrote the constitution with the complete backing from every major country in the United Nations, and declared Democrats "terrorists" and threatened them with the military.

In reality the provisionals in Ukraine are members of the party that lost the last election and are now ruling in Kiev with full western support. I call the west's support for this illegal Ukrainian government an act of extreme aggression, itself.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby jman111 » Fri May 02, 2014 10:06 am

Bludgeon wrote:It's no different than...

Really?
No different?
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