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Postby supaunknown » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:07 pm

Comparing Ruth to Bonds is strange. Most ballparks were bigger back then and the tendency was more towards playing "small ball". Hitting home runs was at first thought to be show-offy and in poor taste. Ruth's all-natural fat ass was a rock star.

Bonds: Huge *
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Postby buckyor » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:11 pm

GenieU wrote:A-Rod at age 32 is expected to possibly eclipse 756 if he can stick around long enough...Although one hears that he wanted the fan who caught number 600 to just give him back the ball! Possibly valued at as much as 30K! What a cheap prick....


That's awfully presumptuous of him, considering it's only been a few days since he hit number 500.
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Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:40 pm

According to Wikipedia(take with a grain of salt), Babe Ruth would have been credited with at least 50, if not 78, more home runs if the foul ball rules weren't in place. I remember reading an article years back by someone who painstakingly researched every at-bat from Ruth to determine how many home runs would have been added/subtracted if playing in today's ballparks. The number was defintitely positive; when I have some time I'll try to surf the net to find the link.
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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:54 pm

Comparing eras is futile. Babe Ruth is the hot dogs and beer champ, Aaron is the greenies champ, and Bonds is the steroid champ. Period. Babe Ruth is still the greatest of all time if you consider his HRs in NY and his pitching in Boston. Look up the stats sometime, he truly was a 2-way player, even if he was fat, and a drunk, and loved whores...

Anyone that begrudges Barry's records and cheers for any player from this era is a hypocrite. As far as I'm concerned, we can suspect that many of the best players were/are enhanced. Therefore, we accept Barry's record and move on until its broken (by Arod presumably--recent quotes from Canseco insist that he's not 100% clean)...or we wipe away all records in baseball before steroid and drug testing began in earnest.

He is a jerk, but until he's proven guilty, you have to accept it and move on.
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Postby TheBookPolice » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:58 pm

Leela: Miller's on a pace to hit 70 blerns.

Professor Farnsworth: He's good, all right, but he's no Clem Johnson. And Johnson played back in the days before steroid injections were mandatory!
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Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:59 pm

Isn't the admission of guilt proof enough. He did tell the grand jury that he took steroids, although "unwittingly." Now, if you want to believe that a guy who's success ties in strongly to his health would have no idea what he was putting into his body, well, I've got another Big Dig to sell you.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:05 pm

I also remember hearing that Ruth wasn't credited for some walk-off homers. It seems back then, that if those on base score the winning run, the batter was just credited with the base he was on when the winning run crossed the plate. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me about baseball lore can verify or discredit my remarks.
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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Not the point. Again, if you presume guilt for him you presume guilt for any and all players that bulked up. The only record setting home run hitters/pitchers from that era who are not under a cloud are Griffey, Maddux and Glavine. But I can't even be sure about them.

To be honest I have no problem with Bonds and his ilk, baseball looked the other way, including and especially the media and the fans. If guys took something that they thought would help that turned out to be illegal, they got away with it because there were no rules. Now, not so much.

I'm glad that baseball is "cleaning up its act." I do hope that they stop the use of steroids and HGH. But you can't celebrate suspected juicers like McGwire and Sosa (not to mention Palmeiro/Sheff/Frank Thomas), and Clemens and Randy Johnson, and vilify Bonds, its just hypocrisy. According to MLB and the player's union, they didn't violate the rules for most of the era, and only Giambi has admitted guilt recently. Obviously, they look guilty, but we're innocent until proven guilty.

If estimates of over 50% of players juicing are even close to accurate, Barry Bonds is not the problem. So stop drinking that Hatorade!!! Btw, most players in the 60's and 70's took Greenies or amphetamines every day and few were caught or subjected to media scrutiny. These are now classified as performance enhancers. We better put asterisks next to all of their names...
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Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:29 pm

Dock Ellis admitted taking LSD prior to pitching a no hitter in 1970. But acid is hardly a performance enhancing drug, so no asterisk is needed.
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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:32 pm

I love that story, there's a mildly amusing indie rock song by Barbara Manning called "Hey Dock Ellis." Speaking of which, I saw Bill Lee pitch 6 shutout innings at the Mallards game on Friday. He once claimed that he "didn't smoke marijuana, he just sprinkled it on his pancakes."
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Postby TheBookPolice » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:37 pm

I have generally been a Bonds defender, mildly apathetic but mostly agreeing with the "show me something more than circumstantial evidence" crowd.

It struck me, though, that I am very much accepting of the legal case against Michael Vick with similar evidence against him. On a higher level, I am convinced that the outing of Valerie Plame was intentional and vindictive, and that the only reason it hasn't been taken up in court is that the evidence required to make the case was obstructed too well by Libby.

So, I'm forced by intellectual honesty to reevaluate my feelings/position on Bonds. I'm not sure where it'll end up.
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Postby GenieU » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:55 pm

O.K so Ruth had a taste for Hookers and Bond's ex-mistress posed for Playboy...maybe not so different.
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Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:49 pm

Boston Jeff, please don't just assume that my vilification of Bonds precludes my assumption of guilt for any other major leaguer. Personally, I think it's disgusting that Clemens has been virtually untouched throughout this. My cynicism leads me to believe that two years ago when he missed the first 50-odd games of the season, he was actually on double-secret probation from Dean Selig. I'm jaded enough that it wouldn't shock me to find out my boy David Ortiz dabbled in pharmaceuticals. It's undeniable that Bonds is getting more than his share of criticism, but when you're going after the most hallowed record in sports with such a surly attitude, there's gonna be some payback.
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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:51 pm

I agree, I worry about Manny and Papi too.
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Postby supaunknown » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:20 pm

boston_jeff wrote:To be honest I have no problem with Bonds and his ilk, baseball looked the other way, including and especially the media and the fans. If guys took something that they thought would help that turned out to be illegal, they got away with it because there were no rules. Now, not so much.

Just because MLB was in denial and then painfully slow to react to the performance enhancing drugs that infested their league doesn't mean that it was ever "OK". How about common sense? Honor? Sportsmanship? I guess you'd have to lump me in the minorty but I've always thought using performance enhancing drugs was cheating. Remember in the not-so-great Rocky IV when they had the montage of Rocky & Drago doing their respective workouts? There was a semi-famous shot of Drago getting injected with a syringe. See, Drago was the BAD guy (at least until the near end of the film). That movie came out in 1985. If the public had been at all informed earlier as to the extent of steroid abuse in MLB I'm pretty certain they would've been revolted. It's just that players, union, and management have kept it their dirty in-house secret. Nobody credible talks for fear of being the ostracized man out. House cleaning never takes place cuz money & on-field performance still reigns supreme. Blame the players. It's ultimately up to them what goes into their bodies. Just because something is understood and accepted doesn't make it right.

Bonds is a melon-headed girly-boy-talkin' shrivelled ballsack havin' CHEATER who now holds one of the most revered records in sports. Congrats to the scumbag.
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