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one less bike...

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Re: one less bike...

Postby Exploding Pinto » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:52 pm

Gotcha. Sure, if he ran the stop sign, it was his fault. Certainly don't think he deserved that horrific end, though.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Kenneth Burns » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:00 pm

I lived a couple of houses from that intersection, Wilson and Baldwin, and was at home when the accident happened. I didn't witness it, but I took in the immediate aftermath. It was horrific. No one deserves that.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby rabble » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:06 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:I lived a couple of houses from that intersection, Wilson and Baldwin, and was at home when the accident happened. I didn't witness it, but I took in the immediate aftermath. It was horrifying. No one deserves that.

Okay, he didn't deserve it.

Now, tell me: did you and the other people deserve to go through that? Do you think other people were permanently affected? Whose fault is it that you have to live with that for the rest of your lives?

I will state, categorically and emphatically that if it were me who did that, I would swear from the bottom of my heart that I got exactly what I deserved for being so stupid, and for being so completely callous about everyone else around me. I'm supposed to be much smarter and more experienced than that, and I refused to pay attention.

That guy, though, he didn't deserve it. He should have gotten away with it.

Edit: Oh, and Crocket, how about you tell us again that if "you're not at fault why would you go through 'hell'? " Expand on that for us, if you would. Kenneth, why don't you give him a hand? Help me understand why I'm not supposed to go through hell if I just watched somebody die and it wasn't my fault.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:45 pm

Why not change the question from "did he get what he deserved" to "is it OK to do what he did?"

I say it's not OK (to run a stop sign full tilt) because a) you can get killed, thus spoiling not only your day but that of several other people; and b) it sets a bad example and a bad precedent.

The latter is important. If 90% of everybody slowed way down and did sort of a hanging-stop, if not a two-feet-on-the-ground stop, you'd put more pressure on the remaining 10% to at least TRY. We'd have fewer Baldwin/Wilson disasters overall, I think. There's sort of a monkey mentality with biking (as with lots of things) and people tend to copy what's going on around them.

The example we set for kids really bothers me. Recently I was in my car on Atwood near St. Bernards when a group of five people on bikes was waiting to cross, I think at Ohio St. One of the cyclists was very aggressive and started across the intersection right as I approached, looking directly at me. I don't know if it was a challenge to see if I'd stop, or he had it somehow timed it in his mind that he'd cross one second after my rear bumper cleared his path, or what. Anyway it looked way too risky to me so I did a very sudden swervy stop, avoided him, and... he started to swear his head off at me.

Go figure. (Of course I yelled back, and I know he heard me.)

This would be normal trash talking and I'd have forgotten all about it two blocks later except that two of the cyclists with him were little kids. I felt SO lucky they hadn't been copying him and pulled right into my path, not knowing whatever weird mental calculus he was performing. Set a terrible example for other adults if you have to, but don't do this stuff in front of kids, OK?
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Re: one less bike...

Postby rabble » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:56 pm

snoqueen wrote:Why not change the question from "did he get what he deserved" to "is it OK to do what he did?"

Sounds fine to me. Without taking back anything I said, I wish I hadn't said it in the first place because it steered the conversation away from the points which you just made so much better than I.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Bad Gradger » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:17 pm

snoqueen wrote:Recently I was in my car on Atwood near St. Bernards when a group of five people on bikes was waiting to cross, I think at Ohio St. One of the cyclists was very aggressive and started across the intersection right as I approached, looking directly at me. I don't know if it was a challenge to see if I'd stop, or he had it somehow timed it in his mind that he'd cross one second after my rear bumper cleared his path, or what. Anyway it looked way too risky to me so I did a very sudden swervy stop, avoided him, and... he started to swear his head off at me.

This sort of thing is exactly what I'm on about. A large fraction of Madison cyclists ride unsafely. If I had to make an informed guess based on over half a decade of living and/or working downtown, I'd estimate half of all riders are at least a little bit unsafe (no helmet, swerving unpredictably around pedestrians, riding on Library Mall or other downtown sidewalks, etc.). 10% are the aggressive, seriously unsafe type you describe, the sort who agree with the OP that they're entitled to ride hard and fast and the rest of us need to reconfigure our lives around them.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Comrade » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Well it is good to see that at least some of the people here get it. I was in my car this afternoon and traveling northbound on Fish Hatch. I was the fourth car in line in the right lane at Greenway, and there were maybe 15 cars total in all lanes. The light turned green and just as I was starting to move, I was passed on the left by a bike who was going between the cars, he proceeded to cut right in front of me, and then take his time holding up all of us.

This honestly scared the crap out of me. I didn't see him untill he was right next to me and inches from my side view mirror. Someone talking on their cell phone or otherwise distracted would have hit and killed him.

Really now, is he not deserving of a ticket just because he was on a bike? Riding on the lane markers between cars at an intersection--weaving in and out at WILL eventually get him killed. Why couldn't he just wait in line like the rest of us for the light to turn?
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Comrade » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:40 pm

How about the other dude that was running red lights while on the WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD at dusk wearing dark clothing biking in the rain? Does he deserve a ticket? No kidding, that actually happened on Fish Hatch as well on the fith of June. Nobody could expect to be looking where he was. Whose fault would that have been?
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Re: one less bike...

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:11 am

Splitting lanes will get you an immediate major ticket on a motorcycle. No reason a bike should get off free on that one.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby CoffeeJones » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:14 pm

Bicyclist Killed In Crash With Truck In Lake Delton
Woman Pronounced Dead After Med Flight Arrived
Posted: 1:10 pm CDT July 10, 2010


http://www.channel3000.com/news/24209546/detail.html

Edited for brevity and to avoid copyright infringement.
Last edited by CoffeeJones on Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Bad Gradger » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:29 pm

CoffeeJones wrote:article

The article has since been updated to change "illegally" to "legally," although what that means as to the circumstances of the accident isn't clear.

Also, nice work copying and pasting the article in full, including the "this material may not be redistributed" note.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Comrade » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:32 pm

Crockett--you are just plain wrong with your analysis and your faulty opinion is not based in reality at all.

There is no varing degree of guilt for running stop signs like there is for murder. That just isn't true. The law does not differentiate like you claim.

Really sorry to hear about the accident in the Dells, but that is proof positive that we need MORE enforcement of traffic laws for bikers.

The attitude of those who feel immune to the law CAN and DOES lead to DEATH. It is foolhardy and dangerous--not to mention stupid.

That moron on Fish Hatchery does this almost daily. He WILL get killed if not stopped. He probably thinks (like the OP, that he is somehow entitled to ride hard and fast and to hell with anyone who is in his way.....
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Comrade » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:59 pm

I jst saw the correction about the biker riding legally. If so, then it is not proof of my claim and I stand corrected. That would then seem to be just a bad accident although it does raise the question of how or why she struck the truck.....
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Stebben84 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:09 pm

Comrade wrote:I jst saw the correction about the biker riding legally. If so, then it is not proof of my claim and I stand corrected. That would then seem to be just a bad accident although it does raise the question of how or why she struck the truck.....


Cause the truck driver was not paying attention.
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Re: one less bike...

Postby Stebben84 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:20 pm

Comrade wrote:The attitude of those who feel immune to the law CAN and DOES lead to DEATH. It is foolhardy and dangerous--not to mention stupid.


I agree. There are a lot of bicyclists out there who just plain suck when it come to riding safely. I am a total geek when it comes to bike safety. I always use hand signals, usually come to a complete stop at signs and always at lights, never ride on the right side of cars, keep behind traffic instead of in front of it, and always wear a helmet.

With all of this I was still hit by an inattentive driver who turned in front of me with no time for me to react.

Comrade wrote:Really sorry to hear about the accident in the Dells, but that is proof positive that we need MORE enforcement of traffic laws for bikers.


No additional enforcement would have kept me from getting hit.
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