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Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:28 pm

Meade wrote:Nice to see Hillary finally - one hour ago and an entire weekend after Rob Portman - came out in favor of same-sex marriage. What a bigot she has been for all these years. Conveniently, her daughter is not gay and so was able to marry (opposite-sex) a few years ago. Why did it not occur to Hillary, at that time, that no one - including her own daughter - is not free unless we are all free?


Did Hillary Clinton previously oppose gay marriage?
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:35 pm

wack wack, it might have been before you were born, in which case you can be forgiven for not remembering, but Mrs. Clinton supported civil unions while opposing same-sex marriage during her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2008.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:38 pm

Meade wrote:wack wack, it might have been before you were born, in which case you can be forgiven for not remembering, but Mrs. Clinton supported civil unions while opposing same-sex marriage during her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2008.


So it was a matter of politics, not bigotry.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:51 pm

wack wack wrote:So it was a matter of politics, not bigotry.

Right. A matter of politics when you do it; bigotry when I do it.

Here's Hillary the hypocrite:
“Like so many others, my personal views have been shaped over time by people I have known and loved, by my experience representing our nation on the world stage, my devotion to law and human rights and the guiding principles of my faith. Marriage, after all, is a fundamental building block of our society, a great joy and, yes, a great responsibility.”


Please make a note.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:02 pm

Ducatista wrote:Mind-bending to those who believe that "some religious text says this is wrong, trust us," but less so to others.

I don't think religous belief really has so much to do with it. People turn to religion to re-enforce feelings they already have.

I'll bet there was some time in your life when the idea of same sex couples having a wedding seemed wrong, similar to a fish riding a bicycle.

Back to the parallel with race equality, the fair comparison is to the acceptance of interracial marriage. Back in the 50's, mixed race marriages were thought to be wrong by 95% of the population, both blacks and whites were against interracial marriage. Were 95% of people bad-hearted back in 1958? I don't think so. It takes time for people to accept new ways of thinking, and I give people a half generation or so to come around.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:19 pm

I just remember a story that illustrates the role that religion plays in social views. I was having a long argument with my dad about homosexuality, and I had him cornered. Frustrated, he came back with, "It's wrong because it is against God's law." I had to remind him that he hadn't believed in God for 30 years.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:39 pm

Meade wrote:Here's Hillary the hypocrite:
“Like so many others, my personal views have been shaped over time by people I have known and loved, by my experience representing our nation on the world stage, my devotion to law and human rights and the guiding principles of my faith. Marriage, after all, is a fundamental building block of our society, a great joy and, yes, a great responsibility.”


Please make a note.


I note that the difference between Clinton and Portman lies in the parts you chose to not make bold.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:41 pm

wack wack wrote:So it was a matter of politics, not bigotry.
What a sad display of backflippery this is.

Try this from another direction: one might argue that George Wallace's segregationism was a matter of politics, not bigotry. Should his discriminatory actions be dismissed, as you have dismissed those of Mrs. Clinton? Did his political motivations make it somehow easier for those on the receiving end of his discrimination?
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:22 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
wack wack wrote:So it was a matter of politics, not bigotry.
What a sad display of backflippery this is.

Try this from another direction: one might argue that George Wallace's segregationism was a matter of politics, not bigotry. Should his discriminatory actions be dismissed, as you have dismissed those of Mrs. Clinton? Did his political motivations make it somehow easier for those on the receiving end of his discrimination?


Of course, by calling it "backflippery" you have evidence of Clinton going back and forth and back again, right? Linear development does not constitute "backflippery." For the record, I don't accuse Portman of "backflippery" either, just a dangerous inability to see beyond himself.

Let's not forgot, as Meade so kindly pointed out, at the point where Ms. Clinton "opposed" gay marriage, she supported civil unions affording committed gay couples the same legal rights as married couples. Discriminatory in name, perhaps, but not much more.

One who might argue that George Wallace's "segregationism" was a matter of politics has not properly researched George Wallace.

The willful disregard for the differences in path to discovery for Clinton and Portman is a statement about the person assessing the situation, not a statement on Clinton or Portman.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:57 am

The backflippery is yours wack wack, in that you have to do mental gymnastics to condemn Portman but condone Clinton. There are minor differences in their opinions and actions, but they are differences of degree, not kind.

Re: Civil Unions as an acceptable substitute for Marriage. Doesn't this ring of "Separate but Equal"? Is this not also a policy that fails to afford full recognition of basic rights to the targeted group? Even if it is just politics, it's still wrong.

You should read up a little more on George Wallace.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:58 am

wack wack wrote:Discriminatory in name, perhaps, but not much more.

Sure - not much more...

To a politically cynical bigot.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:26 am

Then there is Michelle Shocked.

This is a real head-scratcher. I'm shocked.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby Marvell » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:51 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Then there is Michelle Shocked.

This is a real head-scratcher. I'm shocked.


Oh, great.

I'm signed up to work the door for her show at the Harmony in early May. I predict apocalyptic levels of cognitive dissonance.
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:58 am

ArturoBandini wrote:The backflippery is yours wack wack, in that you have to do mental gymnastics to condemn Portman but condone Clinton. There are minor differences in their opinions and actions, but they are differences of degree, not kind.


There is virtually no comparison to the paths taken by Portman and Clinton. The mental gymnastics comes in trying to equate them, not separate them.

ArturoBandini wrote:Re: Civil Unions as an acceptable substitute for Marriage. Doesn't this ring of "Separate but Equal"? Is this not also a policy that fails to afford full recognition of basic rights to the targeted group? Even if it is just politics, it's still wrong.


Please list the legal rights not afforded by "civil unions." Then explain how the concept of a legal "marriage" is something more than a civil union dressed in the language of religion.

ArturoBandini wrote:You should read up a little more on George Wallace.


I read the entire entry and learned that Wallace was an even bigger bastard than I previously believed. Was that your intent?
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Re: Well Now That MY Son Is Gay...

Postby wack wack » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:01 am

Meade wrote:
wack wack wrote:Discriminatory in name, perhaps, but not much more.

Sure - not much more...

To a politically cynical bigot.


Just as I asked of Arturo:

Please list the legal rights not afforded by "civil unions." Then explain how the concept of a legal "marriage" is something more than a civil union dressed in the language of religion.
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