MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Thursday, September 18, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 52.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

Government Motors...a success story.

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:03 pm

We should subsidize business that has positive externalities (like Tesla) and punish (ie tax) business that cause us to go to war (Big Oil). I'd LOVE to hear a politician call for higher taxes on oil to fund the war.


So you are for Cap and Trade?
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:04 pm

I'd love the govt to subsidize an upstart car company that will help us get out of the middle east. GM is not that company. In fact, GM IS Big Oil. Their whole business plan was based on SUVs.


GM was subsidized to save jobs in a time of massive job losses. No other reason. That's why we did it. Not becasue we favor GM over any upstart becasue the stakes were the economies and livelihoods of many many Americans.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:07 pm

To call the bailout a 'success' however is going too far.


Jobs were saved and the money is being paid back. What else could be considered success?
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:12 pm

Tesla isn't out of the woods yet - Elon Musk has invested hundreds of millions of dollars his personal money in Tesla, which has yet to see a profit.

Their initial IPO earlier this year at $17 has moved up and down a bit, and today sits at $18. Does that kind of market confidence bode well for their success?

They sell a $109,000 sports car and plan to market a $60,000 luxury car soon. They really aren't aiming to make splash in the Joe SixPack market (yet). We shouldn't subsidize them or any other company.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:20 pm

fisticuffs wrote:GM was subsidized to save jobs in a time of massive job losses. No other reason. That's why we did it.


Dead wrong. GM was saved so the government wouldn't have to cover their insane pension liabilities. They figured they'd rather take a shot at saving them rather than the sure thing of paying their bloated pensions. And it worked (for now) I might add.

At what expense? Too big to fail is not policy we should follow. It stifles investment and innovation and invites moral hazard. In other words, the next time it may not work and we'll have nothing. Plus, it bailed out Big Oil as well.

Also, guess who owns a bunch of GM bonds? Other pensions; namely state pensions. Do you see where this is going?

That is why we saved GM. They don't care about Joe Sixpack on the assembly-line as much as you think they do.
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:20 pm

fisticuffs wrote:So you are for Cap and Trade?


In the right form, yes.
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:32 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Jobs were saved and the money is being paid back. What else could be considered success?

The bailout package was a little more complicated than that. GM has only claimed the ability to pay back their loans (about $6b), which were only part of the picture. The government also invested $45b in GM shares - the government is the majority shareholder. That money is still floating around out there, not in our pockets.

The IPO news that Joe linked in the OP will purportedly earn enough cash to buy back a mere 20% of the government's current 61% share of GM. This story is hardly over.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/gm-s- ... 21717.html

Fisticuffs - what if we made it illegal to layoff anyone? Jobs would be 'saved' all the time. Every time a job is artificially saved by government, when the market would have done otherwise, is a misallocation of resources. Someone else doesn't have a job, or a better paying job, because of this. Granted, that "better paying job" might mean slightly higher average wages for factory workers in the Phillipines.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:34 pm

In the right form, yes.

Wow I'd love some more insight as to what you see as the right form. Go yell that at your next Tea Party.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:39 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Go yell that at your next Tea Party.


Come on bro, you're better than that.
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:43 pm

Every time a job is artificially saved by government, when the market would have done otherwise, is a misallocation of resources. Someone else doesn't have a job, or a better paying job, because of this. Granted, that "better paying job" might mean slightly higher average wages for factory workers in the Phillipines.


Well I for one want my government to do what it can to create jobs here instead of the Phillipines. Artificial or not. This free market you have so much faith in doesn't exist as I've said before. It's a pipe dream. Reality is greed and collusion. I want a government that protects the American people from that market. It's not going to do it itself. No one wants bail outs but they were necessary becasue free market people like you stripped away any protections the working people would have had from it's destruction. Democrats in Congress right this very minute are trying to fix those things. Too Big To Fail is not a Democratic platform. Like you we all want accountability but the suffering the failure of these institutions would have caused in the system we have today was not acceptable so we bite our tongues and do what is necessary to prevent that. Crockett speaks endlessly about the benefits received by union and state workers. They are not the enemy. They are Americans just like anyone else. They worked for and negotiated those pensions and benefits legally and fairly. They are entitled to them. Academic Economics and ideological Libertarianism are fine for friendly discussion but fail the real life test repeatedly.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Come on bro, you're better than that.


What do you mean?
That's number 2 on the the Tea Party top 10 list.
Reject Cap and Trade.
It doesn't say reject cap and trade in some form. I don't think you would have said you'd support it in some form if you hadn't just backed yourself into that corner.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:49 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Well I for one want my government to do what it can to create jobs here instead of the Phillipines. Artificial or not.


The Soviet Union had lots of jobs.
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm

The Soviet Union had lots of jobs.


In Communist Russia the jobs had YOU.

Seriously drop the "socialist" shit. Only complete dumb shits run around screaming that. You're better than that.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:55 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
The Soviet Union had lots of jobs.


In Communist Russia the jobs had YOU.

Seriously drop the "socialist" shit. Only complete dumb shits run around screaming that. You're better than that.


Dude, when you want artificial jobs funded by the govt there's no other word for it.
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:56 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Well I for one want my government to do what it can to create jobs here instead of the Phillipines. Artificial or not.

How egalitarian of you. "Artificial or not"? Really? Who is living in fantasyland now? Creating an "artificial" economy to cover for an uncomfortable reality is only going to hurt us in the long term - you've got to recognize that.
fisticuffs wrote:Academic Economics and ideological Libertarianism are fine for friendly discussion but fail the real life test repeatedly.

You've covered a lot of breadth in your last post, but very little depth. I'll only critique the last sentence, quoted above.
"Academic Economics" is exactly what has caused our recent problems. Keynesian fantasies (the utility of boosting aggregate demand) coupled with Federal Reserve interest rate tricks have fueled bubble after bubble. These are not free market institutions.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

PreviousNext

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar