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Government Motors...a success story.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Average Joe » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:40 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Sure it is. We saved a shit ton of jobs in manufacturing.


A shit ton of jobs paying income taxes rather than drawing unemployment insurance.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:42 pm

A shit ton of jobs paying income taxes rather than drawing unemployment insurance.


As I noted here:
What about the thousands of suppliers? The billions in lost tax revenue? Is that success?


Crockett won't be satisfied until all American manufacturing dies.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Average Joe » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:46 pm

I think she would be happy if it was just the unions that died.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:50 pm

Yep that seems to be the case. Government employees and union employees just have it too good apparently. Crockett would rather work in the mines with no safety equipment 80 hours a week with no benefits. Could it be that private industry just hasn't been paying well enough and not gov't and unions getting too much? If you look at the last 30 years middle income wages have stayed flat or fallen while CEO pay has risen exponentially. Maybe if we had more unions state wages wouldn't look so out of touch.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Galoot » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:06 pm

These econ classes that Crockett keeps creaming her jeans over--are they the same econ classes that teach that the free market is the most efficient way to operate an economy? And that the free market will not result in disastrous bubbles like the ones we just experienced?

Or have these econ classes started teaching about how Alan Greenspan was completely shocked at the utter failure of the market to accurately price those junk mortgage bonds?

I'm damned glad that GM was bailed out. Many auto press writers were saying at the time of the bankruptcy that GM, ironically, is now making the best cars they've ever made in the company's history.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby O.J. » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:09 pm

fisticuffs wrote: The billions in lost tax revenue? Is that success?


Obviously, the tax revenue that GM workers and their suppliers(unless some of them got sweetheart deals, too) remit is welcome, but it should be noted that GM won't be paying tax on roughly their next $45 billion in profits, due to carry forward tax-loss provisions that are normally wiped out in bankruptcy proceedings.

I wouldn't have much of a problem if the bailout was referred to as a necessary evil, but calling it a great success is a little misleading, for reasons such as the above, not to mention the moral hazard it creates. Why would the government hesitate, even for a second, to bail GM out again, if it was considered such a great achievement?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:07 am

Did Obama's Car Czar Steven Rattner really get sued on the same day as GM's initial public offering, for "pay to play" allegations of using special favors to win a $150 million investment from the state pension fund?
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/11/18/expaining-the-charges-against-steven-rattner/
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:03 am

Galoot wrote:These econ classes that Crockett keeps creaming her jeans over--are they the same econ classes that teach that the free market is the most efficient way to operate an economy? And that the free market will not result in disastrous bubbles like the ones we just experienced?


Do a little research, the 'free market' didn't cause these bubbles. The govt and the fed caused these bubbles. How? Moral hazard, perverse incentives, a Fed concerned with 'full employment' rather than price stability, a congress concerned with home ownership over rational markets.

You can blame a lot of aspects of our country and economy for the bubbles but to blame the 'free market' is stupid. We don't live in a free market. Unfortunately we live in a weird purgatory where we're half way between socialism and capitalism. We need to pick one and go with it.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:08 am

fisticuffs wrote:Crockett won't be satisfied until all American manufacturing dies.


We still manufacture way more than everyone else in the world. We're just more efficient at it now so it requires fewer people.

The good 'ol days where a guy can work a machine and make great union wages are gone. Let's move onto other things we're good at. Judging from the MULTIPLE bailouts GM has received, making cars is not one of them.

Also, why don't I ever hear Dems or Greens argue that GM buried itself by selling-out to the giant SUV crowd? They chose to make gas-guzzlers that helped take us to war and ruin the environment.

Shouldn't they pay for their selfish decisions? Wouldn't everyone have been better off if they had invested in green cars rather than SUVs all those years?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:08 am

Stella_Guru wrote:Did Obama's Car Czar Steven Rattner really get sued on the same day as GM's initial public offering, for "pay to play" allegations of using special favors to win a $150 million investment from the state pension fund?
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/11/18/expaining-the-charges-against-steven-rattner/


Hilarious.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby gargantua » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:37 am

Crockett wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Crockett won't be satisfied until all American manufacturing dies.


Also, why don't I ever hear Dems or Greens argue that GM buried itself by selling-out to the giant SUV crowd? They chose to make gas-guzzlers that helped take us to war and ruin the environment.

Shouldn't they pay for their selfish decisions? Wouldn't everyone have been better off if they had invested in green cars rather than SUVs all those years?


There seems to be some weird logic at play here.

GM "sold out to the giant SUV crowd" because that's what people wanted to buy. Isn't selling people what they want a free market principle? They'd have gone into green cars if people had wanted them. It was the buying public that chose gas guzzlers, not the manufacturers. Put the blame where it belongs.

It's just too easy to call someone short-sighted when one has the benefit of hindsight.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:00 pm

Crockett wrote:We don't live in a free market. Unfortunately we live in a weird purgatory where we're half way between socialism and capitalism. We need to pick one and go with it.

Name a country without a mixed economy. I can name two: North Korea at the pure socialism extreme and Somalia at the free market extreme. I prefer more of a balance myself.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Marvell » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:45 pm

gargantua wrote:
Crockett wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Crockett won't be satisfied until all American manufacturing dies.


Also, why don't I ever hear Dems or Greens argue that GM buried itself by selling-out to the giant SUV crowd? They chose to make gas-guzzlers that helped take us to war and ruin the environment.

Shouldn't they pay for their selfish decisions? Wouldn't everyone have been better off if they had invested in green cars rather than SUVs all those years?


There seems to be some weird logic at play here.

GM "sold out to the giant SUV crowd" because that's what people wanted to buy. Isn't selling people what they want a free market principle? They'd have gone into green cars if people had wanted them. It was the buying public that chose gas guzzlers, not the manufacturers. Put the blame where it belongs.

It's just too easy to call someone short-sighted when one has the benefit of hindsight.


Well, not to mention that the IRS tax code included a break that allowed basically anyone who was in a position to do so to write the cost of an SUV off their business taxes.

That this revision to the tax code was devised and passed by Republicans goes without saying.

So - the GOP basically rigged the market in favor of SUVs, and passed the cost on to the American tax payer. I guess that's some more of those 'rational markets' for ya.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:51 pm

We still manufacture way more than everyone else in the world. We're just more efficient at it now so it requires fewer people.


Really? Care to back that up?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby O.J. » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:19 pm

The U.S. still leads the world in manufacturing production, but China will soon surpass us.
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