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An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Meade » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:04 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Now go back to defending the pepper spraying of passive resisters. Dare you.


You can even double dare if you like, the pepper spraying is not defensible.

But it doesn't come even close to what you seem to want it to be.

The sprayers are being held to account. And so should the road blockers.
Last edited by Meade on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Igor » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:05 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
David Blaska wrote:But hope you're not equating Occupy Tentville with the Civil Rights Movement.

How about all the Hoovervilles during the Great Depression? Or maybe the WWI veterans' Bonus Army during the same time period, whose shacks were burned down by Patton?


First of all, I would say MacArthur had more to do with it than Patton. Secondly, FDR was also against paying the bonuses early. I believe congress overrode his veto to get it passed.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:12 pm

David Blaska wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Now go back to defending the pepper spraying of passive resisters. Dare you.


They were not passive. They were actively resisting!

Huh? Differentiate their actions from those who protested in the 30s or the 60s/70s, if you can. No mere quibbling, please.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:18 pm

Igor wrote:First of all, I would say MacArthur had more to do with it than Patton.

Second of all, they were both to blame. One gave the order and the other one carried it out. Just like in the case at hand.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby David Blaska » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:38 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Now go back to defending the pepper spraying of passive resisters. Dare you.


Resisting what, zookeeper?

No mere quibbling, please.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:47 pm

Heh. At 8:00 pm, Blaska insists "They were not passive. They were actively resisting!" Three minutes later, he can't figure out what they were resisting. But ... he knows it was active!

I don't care if the kids who got pepper-sprayed were demanding economic justice, certified copies of Obama's birth certificate, or the truth about UFOs. There is no justification for close-range application of concentrated pepper spray on non-threatening, non-violent persons. This ought to be blindingly obvious, but in case it isn't, just look at the precedent set by the 1997 Humboldt County case.

If you are a law enforcement officer and you use pepper spray inappropriately, to inflict pain on non-threatening persons, you may lose your job, you will certainly bring disgrace on your employer, and there is a good chance that you will run up millions of dollars in court costs.

It doesn't matter if the kids were blocking a road, or if they secretly were hoping the cops would assault them, or whatever else Meade and Blaska will come up with next. You cannot shoot them, you cannot kick them in the face, you cannot spray chemical weapons in their faces at point-blank range. If those limits bother you, you should look for a different line of work.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Igor » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:53 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Igor wrote:First of all, I would say MacArthur had more to do with it than Patton.

Second of all, they were both to blame. One gave the order and the other one carried it out. Just like in the case at hand.


Very few people have consistent views on "resisting orders that you find morally wrong". Most people are for it when they agree with the person resisting the order, and against it when they don't agree.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:56 pm

Igor wrote:Very few people have consistent views on "resisting orders that you find morally wrong". Most people are for it when they agree with the person resisting the order, and against it when they don't agree.


You're probably right about that. People tend to be inconsistent about a lot of things, and morally gray areas provide fertile ground for inconsistency.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:15 pm

Madcity Expat wrote:
wack wack wrote: I think most cops are control freaks with less-than-positive outlooks on humanity to start, and are attracted to the profession for this reason. It's easier to be a natural asshole without repercussions working as a cop than it is working as a desk jockey.


This statement is rubbish.


What Madcity Expat said. Yes.

Most cops are absolutely not thugs. At least not any place that I've ever lived.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby David Blaska » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:20 pm

kurt_w wrote:Heh. At 8:00 pm, Blaska insists "They were not passive. They were actively resisting!" Three minutes later, he can't figure out what they were resisting. But ... he knows it was active!


Blaska has already answered. The "kids" were actively resisting the police.

I want to know what the Zookeeper thinks the kids were resisting.

kurt_w wrote:... It doesn't matter if the kids were blocking a road, or if they secretly were hoping the cops would assault them, or whatever else Meade and Blaska will come up with next. You cannot shoot them, you cannot kick them in the face, you cannot spray chemical weapons in their faces at point-blank range. If those limits bother you, you should look for a different line of work.


Pepper spray, essentially a concentrated form of habenero peppers, is -- would you agree Kurt? -- several notches below shooting or kicking in the face. But since Kurt's Law has banned pepper spray, pray tell what recourse is left to the police for those who refuse a legitimate police order?

Step up to the plate, Kurt.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby fennel » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:51 pm

David Blaska wrote:Pepper spray, essentially a concentrated form of habenero peppers,
Essentially concentrated on the order of of 6 to 15 times the strength, you might add.
David Blaska wrote: is -- would you agree Kurt? -- several notches below shooting or kicking in the face.
Which are also illegal under the circumstances.

David Blaska wrote: But since Kurt's Law has banned pepper spray,
As did the US Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.

David Blaska wrote:pray tell what recourse is left to the police for those who refuse a legitimate police order?
As Kurt pointed out, that isn't the point.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:04 pm

David Blaska wrote:But since Kurt's Law has banned pepper spray, pray tell what recourse is left to the police for those who refuse a legitimate police order?


I'm not in a position to "ban" anything, merely repeating what ought to be common sense (and, oddly enough, in the Humboldt case the courts have confirmed common sense).

As for your question -- somehow, hundreds of police departments around the country manage to deal with nonviolent protesters without swabbing pepper spray-soaked Q-tips on their eyeballs or spraying it in their faces at point-blank range.

And in those cases where pepper spray is used, it turns out not to be some kind of magical police pixie dust, capable of instantaneously teleporting protesters straight to the county jail. All it does is inflict pain. Sometimes that pain causes the protesters to give up. Other times, it doesn't.

In Humboldt County, the sheriff's deputies had all kinds of excuses for why they couldn't use any other means to remove protesters. Then, when some of them refused to budge even after having the spray applied directly to their eyes ... the deputies went ahead and used the old-fashioned approach of cutting off their shackles and carrying them away.

Did you really need me to explain that to you?
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby jjoyce » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:16 am

I've been trying to figure out why it was so urgent to remove students from that particular part of the UC-Davis campus, referred to above as a "roadway."

I think that's a stretch. If it's not, please supply a link demonstrating where it took place, because in the photos and video, it looks like you could simply walk around the small group of kids linking arms.

Most reports put it on the Quad, which is like their version of library mall or Bascom Hill. Were the students impeding anything other than a sidewalk, really? Hard to say, but these images certainly don't portray that area as a road.

Image

Image

In a boingboing interview, one of the protesters insisted that the chancellor had actually allowed the students to camp there the night before and they believed it would happen again. He also talks about their willingness to move tents to accommodate campus staff.

Finally, anyone who has spent any time at a UW-Madison campus rally knows how this stuff works. The cops are very good here and if students are going to be arrested, it's because they've denied several warnings to get to that point. Why these guys showed up in riot gear is still a huge question. David Couper would tell you that's the best way to start a riot.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:00 am

David Blaska wrote: But since Kurt's Law has banned pepper spray, pray tell what recourse is left to the police for those who refuse a legitimate police order?

http://www.examiner.com/homeland-security-in-chicago/sheriff-tom-dart-eyes-unmanned-drones-for-cook-county
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby wack wack » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:17 am

Madcity Expat wrote:
wack wack wrote: I think most cops are control freaks with less-than-positive outlooks on humanity to start, and are attracted to the profession for this reason. It's easier to be a natural asshole without repercussions working as a cop than it is working as a desk jockey.


This statement is rubbish.


Your opinion is rubbish. Naive, foolish and completely uninformed as well.
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