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Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:51 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:
pjbogart wrote:the only people supporting Ron Paul are stoners and bankruptcy lawyers.

Don't forget the Sovereign Citizen guys -- though, they can't vote because they're all felons.
Thanks for the hat tip, but what do you mean about being felons?
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:53 pm

snoqueen wrote:
pjbogart wrote: the only people supporting Ron Paul are stoners and bankruptcy lawyers.


And people who spend all their time on line.
And the vast majority of members of the armed forces who have recently contributed to political candidates.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby fennel » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:43 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:And the vast majority of members of the armed forces who have recently contributed to political candidates.
Makes me wonder whether Ron Paul supports subsidizing higher education for veterans.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:59 pm

fennel wrote:Makes me wonder whether Ron Paul supports subsidizing higher education for veterans.
In what way is the GI Bill a subsidy? If you claim that the GI Bill is a subsidy (instead of deferred compensation as a term of employment), then health care and pension benefits for public sector employees, for instance, are subsidies as well. While I'm usually the first one to question the legitimacy of a government function or department, it's reasonable to say that the military is one of the fundamental functions of government, if any are to be considered legitimate.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby pjbogart » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:51 pm

But Arturo, I didn't agree to funding the military therefore this is a serious violation of my rights as an individual. It is, in essence, theft from my wallet to force me to pay taxes to support a military I don't willingly fund.

Woe is me!
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:14 pm

pjbogart wrote:But Arturo, I didn't agree to funding the military therefore this is a serious violation of my rights as an individual. It is, in essence, theft from my wallet to force me to pay taxes to support a military I don't willingly fund.

Woe is me!
So, you're just repeating my arguments back to me? Do you have any points of your own?
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby wack wack » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:54 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
fennel wrote:Makes me wonder whether Ron Paul supports subsidizing higher education for veterans.
In what way is the GI Bill a subsidy? If you claim that the GI Bill is a subsidy (instead of deferred compensation as a term of employment), then health care and pension benefits for public sector employees, for instance, are subsidies as well.


Really? So the government said, "hey soldiers, we're going to pay you a little bit less so you can have the option of going to school when you're done fighting." Or, the soldiers themselves negotiated for this arrangement?

Really?
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby TheBookPolice » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:30 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Thanks for the hat tip, but what do you mean about being felons?

Show me a "Sovereign Citizen" who isn't a felon, and I'll show you a "Sovereign Citizen" who hasn't been caught yet.

Or are you asking us to believe you're the only SCer who hasn't dodged -- sorry, protested -- his taxes, filed a bogus lien on a state official, or refused to sign an official document on the basis of some arcane chapter of the Uniform Commercial Code?

(This is of course mostly in jest, but the libertarian "I am an island unto myself" selfishness bothers me more than just about any political ideology.)
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:42 am

wack wack wrote:Really? So the government said, "hey soldiers, we're going to pay you a little bit less so you can have the option of going to school when you're done fighting." Or, the soldiers themselves negotiated for this arrangement?
The GI Bill has a long and complicated history. One major issue making the subsidy vs. compensation decision somewhat murky is that for decades people were involuntarily drafted into service. But the GI Bill was supported by the VFW and other veterans' organizations at the time of its proposal, so you could say that soldiers were indeed arguing on behalf of other soldiers to achieve this form of compensation (which wasn't limited to tuition - a returning soldier could also receive a monthly sum of cash).

Anyway, instead of responding with a non-argument: "Really?", I invite you to make the case that the GI bill is better defined as a subsidy than deferred compensation.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:53 am

TheBookPolice wrote:Show me a "Sovereign Citizen" who isn't a felon, and I'll show you a "Sovereign Citizen" who hasn't been caught yet.
This is a good point, but I don't know why it is a targeted criticism of me, libertarianism or the sovereign citizen idea (you chose the capitalization, not me). In general, I believe that too many actions are considered criminal in our society, and that laws are written too broadly and interpreted favorably by the police and by courts. There was a book written about this: Three Felonies a Day
TheBookPolice wrote:Or are you asking us to believe you're the only SCer who hasn't dodged -- sorry, protested -- his taxes, filed a bogus lien on a state official, or refused to sign an official document on the basis of some arcane chapter of the Uniform Commercial Code?
It's pretty clear that most people around here believe whatever they want about me anyway, so knock yourself out. I'm sure I have unwittingly committed a felony or two in my time, but that is almost unavoidable, given the multitude of possible felonies (many victimless). I pay my taxes, grudgingly. I don't file bogus liens against other people (who cares if they are political officials) - where did you even get that idea?
TheBookPolice wrote:(This is of course mostly in jest, but the libertarian "I am an island unto myself" selfishness bothers me more than just about any political ideology.)
The "I am an island" mythology isn't actually reflective of libertarianism, or at least not of all libertarians. Don't base your opinions on a simplistic strawman idea of an entire field of political philosophy.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:20 pm

Artie, google: GI bill socialism. Many have held that view since it was initially enacted.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby wack wack » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:34 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Anyway, instead of responding with a non-argument: "Really?", I invite you to make the case that the GI bill is better defined as a subsidy than deferred compensation.


How very x5 of you.

Why would I do that? I didn't make the silly comparison in the first place. I had nothing to explain, you did.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:47 pm

Back on topic-- Santorum's latest quote:
What’s left in France became the guillotine. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re a long way from that, but if we do and follow the path of President Obama and his overt hostility to faith in America, then we are headed down that road.

The fact that this man has won any kind of political contest shows how shockingly ignorant a broad swath of this country has become.
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Artie, google: GI bill socialism. Many have held that view since it was initially enacted.
What's your point? Should I say that the GI Bill is or is not socialism just because some people have argued that for a long time?
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Re: Santorum wins! Santorum wins!

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:19 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Artie, google: GI bill socialism. Many have held that view since it was initially enacted.
What's your point? Should I say that the GI Bill is or is not socialism just because some people have argued that for a long time?

Of course, anything the government does beyond being the night-watchman state is socialism in the eyes of the libertarian.
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