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One perk of being an Independant....

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One perk of being an Independant....

Postby Vinnie P » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:14 am

One perk of being an Independant is the unfettered freedom to call out both sides on their bullshit.

I have never wanted to actually join a political party. I have never been willing to vote a straight party ticket. I've voted for Democrats, I've voted for Republicans, and I've voted for a few candidates that where Independant, or from "small parties". I've also played fundraisers for the same mix. I am not a partisan guy.

This past year in politics has forced me to re-think that. It has gotten really ugly. This forum is a prime example of that. Hate Mongering, bigotry, a complete disregard for the other guy's right to a differing opinion, and to express that opinion, lying about people to discredit them, the willingness to accept those lies without proof - that's what politics has become. The worst thing about it is that I'm not just talking about the politicians - I kind of expect a certain amount of that from them. No, I'm talking about regular people.

I'm disgusted by it.

I still don't want to "pick a side" but more and more I feel like I'm being backed into a corner where I will be forced to do just that.

I have issues with both parties. For example, I think that abortion needs to remain legal, and that homosexuals should not be prohibited from getting married, on the other hand, I HATE the Nanny State, and my taxes are already too high. I also have issues with the current crop of Presidential candidates - I don't want any of them in office, and that includes Obama.

The only thing left to look at then is the people who have picked a side. Looking at how they behave, how they treat others, and listening to what they say. The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.

I'm betting that the reactions to this post will support my conclusion. Let's see if I'm wrong.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby jjoyce » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:58 am

Vinnie P wrote:The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.


That's one way to vote, I guess. It's not really different from voting how your mom or dad or neighbor or friend votes. I'm sure this factored in to how I have voted in the past (Have you seen the people who show up at Santorum and Paul rallies?).

As for how the right treats people vs. the left, keep this in mind: For many women in rural Wisconsin, Planned Parenthood clinics are the only place they can go for certain types of health care. These clinics do not perform abortions (only a couple in the state actually do). The money PP receives from the government is never used to perform abortions. Yet Scott Walker cut their funding because of their politics.

Fair? I guess it's politically fair. But again, you say you base your opinion on how people treat each other, as opposed to politics.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:24 am

The only thing left to look at then is the people who have picked a side. Looking at how they behave, how they treat others, and listening to what they say. The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.


Considering all the vile disgusting hate that comes form almost exclusively the right I don't see how you came to that decision. Maybe you also hate gays, Mexicans, the poor, foreigners, non-Christians, and liberals. Liberals only seem to hate unchecked greed.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby wack wack » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:32 am

Vinnie P wrote:For example, I think that abortion needs to remain legal, and that homosexuals should not be prohibited from getting married, on the other hand, I HATE the Nanny State, and my taxes are already too high.


Please explain what your idea of "Nanny State" entails.

As far as my experience shows, the concern of a "nanny" is almost exclusively regarding one's behavior.

When it comes to controlling personal behavior, the "Nanny State" is fostered almost entirely by the GOP, and conservatives in general.

How is it that Dems or liberals are responsible for the nanny state?
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:34 am

To another discouraged and disgusted soul; your feelings are based on the fact that there has been a bipartisan flight from working people and poverty, the words "poor people" don't even get uttered in the discourse of the two rich men's parties. There may be some variance here and there, but fundamentally they are here to serve capital. They never reject an opportunity to collect more corporate dollars, never accept responsibility for breaking a promise, and embrace corruption after denouncing it. The devil made me take the Super Pac money.
Last edited by Stella_Guru on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby rabble » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:36 am

Vinnie P wrote:The only thing left to look at then is the people who have picked a side. Looking at how they behave, how they treat others, and listening to what they say. The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.

Can you give me some examples of that?
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby pjbogart » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:54 am

This reminds me of the Clinton impeachment days when people would call up talk radio or email CNN and say, "I used to be a Democrat, but..." or "I'm an independent, but..." Essentially, the caller pretends to be reasonable before spouting a bunch of right-wing talking points that only an unreasonable person would repeat.

Vinnie P. is not an independent. Vinnie P. has never been an independent.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby wack wack » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:58 am

pjbogart wrote:This reminds me of the Clinton impeachment days when people would call up talk radio or email CNN and say, "I used to be a Democrat, but..." or "I'm an independent, but..." Essentially, the caller pretends to be reasonable before spouting a bunch of right-wing talking points that only an unreasonable person would repeat.

Vinnie P. is not an independent. Vinnie P. has never been an independent.


Ha! Clinton days? I hear this dozens of times week on WPR right now. Well, these days it's usually, "I'm an independent who voted for Obama, but..."

And the funniest thing is, most conservatives (including the ones who post here) fail to understand that the crap they spread comes ONLY from Fox News.

Dear Fox Cons: you're not fooling anyone, your source betrays you.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby pjbogart » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:06 am

Oh yeah, they've been doing it ever since. I meant that it was the first time I saw it and it was pure inanity then and it's pure inanity now. People from both parties do it, but it seems more prominent amongst Republicans. Either that or they're just really bad at hiding the lie.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby Vinnie P » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:43 am

jjoyce wrote:
Vinnie P wrote:The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.


That's one way to vote, I guess. It's not really different from voting how your mom or dad or neighbor or friend votes. I'm sure this factored in to how I have voted in the past (Have you seen the people who show up at Santorum and Paul rallies?).


We're all influenced by our parents and the other people around us to one degree or another. This isn't about how my parents, neighbors or friends vote. I'm no fan of Santorum or his followers. I have mixed feelings about Paul, but I don't think he has a shot. He's kind of the Ralph Nader of the right.


jjoyce wrote:As for how the right treats people vs. the left, keep this in mind: For many women in rural Wisconsin, Planned Parenthood clinics are the only place they can go for certain types of health care. These clinics do not perform abortions (only a couple in the state actually do). The money PP receives from the government is never used to perform abortions. Yet Scott Walker cut their funding because of their politics.

Fair? I guess it's politically fair. But again, you say you base your opinion on how people treat each other, as opposed to politics.


It is my understanding that those types of health care will be provided by other providers. Personally, I have no problem with a government funded clinic performing abortions. What you are bringing up is how a politician's decisions might affect people, not how regular people treat each other. Also, I didn't say I base my opinion entirely "on how people treat each other, as opposed to politics". That's only part of it.



fisticuffs wrote:Considering all the vile disgusting hate that comes form almost exclusively the right I don't see how you came to that decision. Maybe you also hate gays, Mexicans, the poor, foreigners, non-Christians, and liberals. Liberals only seem to hate unchecked greed.


Now this is what I'm talking about! The Right is not innocent when it comes to "vile disgusing hate", but I see a lot more of it coming from the Left. Your post is a perfect example of vile and disgusting. I express a dislike of the current political climate and a conclusion that you don't like, so you attack me with the suggestions that amount to false accusations. You are the problem.



wack wack wrote:Please explain what your idea of "Nanny State" entails.

As far as my experience shows, the concern of a "nanny" is almost exclusively regarding one's behavior.

When it comes to controlling personal behavior, the "Nanny State" is fostered almost entirely by the GOP, and conservatives in general.

How is it that Dems or liberals are responsible for the nanny state?


Seriously?

Again, the Right isn't completely innocent - some people on both sides would send me to prison for having a bag of weed - but it isn't the right trying to control my diet, my smoking, or my language.


pjbogart wrote:This reminds me of the Clinton impeachment days when people would call up talk radio or email CNN and say, "I used to be a Democrat, but..." or "I'm an independent, but..." Essentially, the caller pretends to be reasonable before spouting a bunch of right-wing talking points that only an unreasonable person would repeat.

Vinnie P. is not an independent. Vinnie P. has never been an independent.


I haven't said anything unreasonable. I haven't spouted any talking points. I voted for Clinton.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:48 am

Now this is what I'm talking about! The Right is not innocent when it comes to "vile disgusing hate", but I see a lot more of it coming from the Left. Your post is a perfect example of vile and disgusting. I express a dislike of the current political climate and a conclusion that you don't like, so you attack me with the suggestions that amount to false accusations. You are the problem.


I'm not attacking you or accuse you of anything. I don't see anything close to hate on the left. I see it on the right. Constantly. Please enlighten me. I do hate hate. You got me there.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby jjoyce » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:02 am

Vinnie P wrote:I have mixed feelings about Paul, but I don't think he has a shot.


We're not talking about the candidates, I thought, but their followers. Pay close attention, as Paul's followers consider themselves the conscience of the right.

It is my understanding that those types of health care will be provided by other providers. Personally, I have no problem with a government funded clinic performing abortions. What you are bringing up is how a politician's decisions might affect people, not how regular people treat each other. Also, I didn't say I base my opinion entirely "on how people treat each other, as opposed to politics". That's only part of it.


I don't think you're following your own guidelines here. A politician is a person, in this case a guy who wraps himself in his Christianity and "Eagle Scout" values. He's putting politics before women's health. That's one person's treatment of others, no two ways about it. If the right says that balanced budgets are a moral issue, then how is this not?

I also think your statement about it being your understanding that other entities will pick this up is confused. What other entities? Catholic hospitals, perhaps, which will levy moral judgments about a woman's decision to use birth control? Might it be the Catholics (ie. Santorum, Gingrich) are deliberately pushing for public funding to come their way so they can evangelize in the exam room?

Come on already with this idea that you base your political decisions on the supporters of the two parties. There are a-holes on both sides and both sides are hypocritical on major issues. You're excusing yourself from really taking a stand or learning about who stands for what ("It is my understanding..." Please!).

Paul is hardly the right's Nader. Nader was an effective advocate (thanks for the seatbelts) for consumers at a time when corporations got away with a lot. What's Paul done other than rally an army of disenfranchised weirdos?
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby rabble » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:10 am

rabble wrote:
Vinnie P wrote:The only thing left to look at then is the people who have picked a side. Looking at how they behave, how they treat others, and listening to what they say. The conclusion is that I'm better off with the Right than I am with the Left.

Can you give me some examples of that?

I didn't think so.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby wack wack » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:25 am

Vinnie P wrote:
wack wack wrote:Please explain what your idea of "Nanny State" entails.

As far as my experience shows, the concern of a "nanny" is almost exclusively regarding one's behavior.

When it comes to controlling personal behavior, the "Nanny State" is fostered almost entirely by the GOP, and conservatives in general.

How is it that Dems or liberals are responsible for the nanny state?


Seriously?

Again, the Right isn't completely innocent - some people on both sides would send me to prison for having a bag of weed - but it isn't the right trying to control my diet, my smoking, or my language.


Really? The left tries to control your diet? Please point me to examples of the left trying to legislate your diet. Then explain how suggesting what you should or shouldn't do is trying to control you.

The left tries to prevent you from smoking? Or do they try to prevent your dangerous habit from disturbing others?

The left is trying to control your language? In what sense?

Please tell me how the right's attempt to legislate what a woman does with her body is less invasive and offensive, less "nanny state," then laws controlling the effects of your dangerous behavior to others.

To suggest that the left and right are equally critical of your bag of weed is laughable.
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Re: One perk of being an Independant....

Postby minicat » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:35 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Now this is what I'm talking about! The Right is not innocent when it comes to "vile disgusing hate", but I see a lot more of it coming from the Left. Your post is a perfect example of vile and disgusting. I express a dislike of the current political climate and a conclusion that you don't like, so you attack me with the suggestions that amount to false accusations. You are the problem.


I'm not attacking you or accuse you of anything. I don't see anything close to hate on the left. I see it on the right. Constantly. Please enlighten me. I do hate hate. You got me there.


Uh ... step back a minute and read what you originally posted. How, exactly, is "Maybe you also hate gays, Mexicans, the poor, foreigners, non-Christians, and liberals" not an attack?

Turning a blind eye to the anger on the left, whether one feels it's more "justified" than what comes from the right, doesn't solve any problems.
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