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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Average Joe » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:45 pm

Bishop recinds apology:
A decade after that letter, the former archbishop of New York, and former bishop of Bridgeport, now describes the handling of the priest-abuse crisis under his watch as “incredibly good.” He said of the letter, "I never should have said that,” and added, “I don’t think we did anything wrong.”


“I never had one of these sex abuse cases.” he said, before adding pompously, “If you have another bishop in the United States who has the record I have, I’d be happy to know who he is.” He also claimed that the Church had no obligation to report abuse to the civil authorities. 


http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... port-abuse

That's all the proof I need that any reforms were for purely monetary reasons and not out of any sense of shame or moral duty.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:54 pm

I posted a link to that full interview earlier.

It's all denials, evasions, blaming others, and barely a hint of remorse. It sounds like he found the whole thing to be a terrible hassle, though.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:06 pm

rabble wrote:So, we should stop picking on the Church because it looks like - we're not sure, but it looks like - they aren't molesting nearly as many kids as they were ten or twelve years ago.

More like 20 to 30 years ago.
I would say that most people who treat the church as Molestation, Inc. have an unbalanced view and probably no close friends who are religous.

Demonizing the Catholic church and catholics is no different than going after Muslims or gays. If the Catholic church is your thing, have at it. All those boy molesters are gay. Most terrorists are Muslim. Lots of fat targets to choose from.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:07 pm

Average Joe wrote:before adding pompously.

that's a fine bit of journalism you quote there.

Average Joe wrote:That's all the proof I need that any reforms were for purely monetary reasons and not out of any sense of shame or moral duty.


How many people have you met in your life experience who are so evil?

The coverup was .... well, I won't quite say evil, I suppose a misguided attempt to protect the mother church, similar to Penn State. Despicable, yes. I find it impossible to believe that the clergy did not see the moral shame of children being abused.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:44 pm

Huckleby wrote: Demonizing the Catholic church and catholics is no different than going after Muslims or gays.

Ugh. I do go after Muslims who use their religious views as an excuse to try restricting hard-won rights or to discriminate. And rest assured, I will decry any organization which institutionalizes child molestation. But this thread is about The Catholic Church. And I know I should just ignore the "gays" thing, but you keep saying it like it's meaningful in some way. It's not. It's nonsense. On the simplest level, "gays" are not an organization. There's no relevance here. Please stop.


Huckleby wrote:If the Catholic church is your thing, have at it.
Here's the thing you keep forgetting: The Catholic Church (regardless of that whole pesky decades-long pedophile conspiracy thing) is the one coming at me. And you. And everyone who doesn't share their extremely narrow views. Whether the rank-and-file agree with the powers-that-be is irrelevant -- as an organization, The Catholic Church has repeatedly sought, and continues to seek, to take society several steps backwards towards more ignorance, less health, and more superstition. They should not have the power or influence they do, and the fact that they position themselves as moral leaders given their history is an affront to even commonsense notions of what is right and wrong. So until the Little League or Unitarians or even my father's formerly-beloved Boy Scouts start funneling vast amounts of money and manpower into an effort to make society worse, I'll continue questioning the necessity of The Catholic Church and pointing out where it ain't all charity and goodness.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:01 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Catholic Church has repeatedly sought, and continues to seek, to take society several steps backwards towards more ignorance, less health, and more superstition.


I'd say this is a gross overstatement. The church is certainly wrong on a number of sexuality-related issues. But their anti-abortion view is defensible and mainstream. They have little to no influence on anybody regarding contraception, other than to possibly goad the Republican party into a political trap.

The church has had some influence blocking gay marriage, but they are about to tumble into irrelevancy there too.

Eventually the Church will be forced to modernize on issues of gender & sexuality that it is dragging its feet on.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:51 pm

Huckleby wrote:Eventually the Church will be forced to modernize on issues of gender & sexuality that it is dragging its feet on.

If I recall, at one point you said you had some knowledge of the Catholic Church's history. Could you cite from that history regarding what causes you to believe they will "modernize" on those particular issues?

Considering all the history I was soaked in for thirteen years or so, I'm a little more than skeptical about the church modernizing on anything but the living conditions of its clergy but I'd be interested to hear your arguments.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:39 pm

rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Eventually the Church will be forced to modernize on issues of gender & sexuality that it is dragging its feet on.

If I recall, at one point you said you had some knowledge of the Catholic Church's history. Could you cite from that history regarding what causes you to believe they will "modernize" on those particular issues?

That's a fair question, but a hard of assignment for me. My knowledge is from old personal experience. Let me think, but not too hard...
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Eventually the Church will be forced to modernize on issues of gender & sexuality that it is dragging its feet on.

If I recall, at one point you said you had some knowledge of the Catholic Church's history. Could you cite from that history regarding what causes you to believe they will "modernize" on those particular issues?

That's a fair question, but a hard of assignment for me. My knowledge is from old personal experience. Let me think, but not too hard...

Is is possible that I, a former altar boy who was raised Catholic, schooled in Catholic history, then took elective college history courses that delved into the history of the Catholic Church from a secular viewpoint, versus some personal experience you had some years back, might be a more credible predictor than you that the Church does not make a habit of modernizing?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby gargantua » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:59 pm

I will probably be blasted for oversimplification here, but I don't think the Catholic Church itself is the root of the problem.

It's men. Who sets the rules in the Catholic Church? Men. Who makes the laws that restrict the rights of women in Islamic societies? Men.

It seems to me that men use religion to enforce their will on women. I admit to not being an expert on all religions, but sometimes it seems to me that keeping women in their place is what religion is for. Modernity is empowering for women, and that's what they're afraid of.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby fennel » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:05 pm

God bless the apostates, for they shall inherit the earth.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:09 pm

rabble wrote:Is is possible that I, a former altar boy who was raised Catholic, schooled in Catholic history, then took elective college history courses that delved into the history of the Catholic Church from a secular viewpoint, versus some personal experience you had some years back, might be a more credible predictor than you that the Church does not make a habit of modernizing?


If you think there is a definitive answer to your question, then I am a step ahead of you.

This is a question that I expect people who are close to the church and observant will disagree on.

How old are you? In my lifetime, I've see the church change a lot. For instance, the role of nuns has been upgraded; they are more professionalized and respected, out of the burqas.
the schools were run like little concentration camps in the 60's. By the 1980's, the severity was gone.
Parish priests used to operate like dictators; the fear is gone, they are answerable to the parishoners.

Your question is good, any simple answer should be ignored.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:13 pm

gargantua wrote: Modernity is empowering for women, and that's what they're afraid of.

Ya, I think this is a big factor.

But how much control does the church actually have over women? None.

There's been a HUGE generational shift. Look at the attitudes among general population towards gays among people over and under the age of 45. The bishops are old men. I expect the Church will change as that generation dies off.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:27 pm

Huckleby wrote:This is a question that I expect people who are close to the church and observant will disagree on.

How old are you? In my lifetime, I've see the church change a lot. For instance, the role of nuns has been upgraded; they are more professionalized and respected, out of the burqas.
the schools were run like little concentration camps in the 60's. By the 1980's, the severity was gone.
Parish priests used to operate like dictators; the fear is gone, they are answerable to the parishoners.

Your question is good, any simple answer should be ignored.

I learned the mass in Latin. Paul VI instigated a lot of changes trying to stem the loss of parishioners. It didn't gain many converts and pissed off a lot of the old guard. It looks to me like the present leadership would put it all back the way it was if they could, including those damned uppity females.

The Church does not modernize. It splinters through revolution.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby fennel » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:53 pm

Huckleby wrote:But how much control does the church actually have over women? None.

There's been a HUGE generational shift. Look at the attitudes among general population towards gays among people over and under the age of 45. The bishops are old men. I expect the Church will change as that generation dies off.
I think that's what the Popester was trying to head off by inducting a new passel of (relatively younger) ideologically-conformant cardinals. It's hard to know exactly how this will change things, but sclerosis (however charismatically presented) isn't generally the best strategy for winning indenpendant souls.
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