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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:08 pm

Huckleby wrote:btw, doesn't "induce menstration" really mean "induce miscarriage"?


I think that's my fault. Somehow "inducing menstruation" has gotten more attention than I intended, which is why I originally said "essentially induces menstruation." In fact, neither birth control pills nor abortifacients "induce menstruation." It's more or less a polite way of saying that a woman is going back to her normal cycle. Birth control pills prevent ovulation. No egg means no pregnancy. When a woman quits taking the pill or moves on to the placebo pills, she returns to her normal cycle.

Abortifacients, on the other hand, can be used to prevent a pregnancy where you already have fertilization. The abortifacient irritates the lining of the uterus preventing the fertilized egg from attaching and becoming a pregnancy. I guess this would be closer to the "induces menstruation."

If you're the sort of person who's convinced that a fertilized egg is actually a human being, then abortifacients are essentially abortion pills. This would obviously be the position of the Catholic Church.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:20 pm

Huckleby wrote:
dave esmond wrote:Or letting Catholic affiliated hospitals make up special rules that no other hospitals can use.

Not making the Church offer insurance that covers things that violate their beliefs for CHURCH employees is the special accommodation. And I'm fine with that.

So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.


I think I've been pretty clear. Yes that's what i BELIEVE. Is my belief somehow less worthy of sensitivity?

Hospitals should all have the same rules. They're not churches and deciding what's best for someone should be between a patient and their doctor. All options should be on the table. Neither my Dr nor I are Catholic. Why should either of us care at all what Catholics think?

Open a hospital that's 100% funded by the church and I might be more sensitive.

This mandate caused a backlash from Catholics, not just the church, across the political spectrum. Presumably, your answer to them is, "tough luck, obey the new law."


Yep. Welcome to the real messy world where no one is gonna get everything they believe in.

Maybe it's insensitive to Catholics. But it's sensitive to the beliefs of the majority of the public who doesn't think it's a sin. The public arena is way messier then the Church arena and ALL sides need to be in the mix.

I don't believe church based schools ought to get money from taxpayers in the form of school vouchers. But until that law changes it's "tough luck, obey the new law" for me. That's how society works. None of us gets 100% of what we'd like. It's impossible to be sensitive to everyone's beliefs at the same time. Someone is always gonna loss.

I get the problem Catholics have with this ruling. I'm sensitive to it. That still doesn't mean I think they should get everything they want when they deal with a larger society who doesn't agree with every last one of their wishes. The real world is a give and take place. You don't seem to believe the church should ever have to be on the giving end. If they want something I should be sensitive and let them have it. So when does the rest of society get to have their wishes followed? When does the church have to be sensitive to my wishes? Ever?

No church needs to run a hospital. If they decide to run one they have to follow the same rules as every other hospital because that's what's best for society as a whole.

We give them plenty of room to run their church in the manner they wish. Largely in a way I totally disagree with. But that's the system. Society at large get's no say in how they run their church. In exchange they don't get to decide what the rules are outside the church.

It's messy no doubt.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:02 pm

dave esmond wrote:No church needs to run a hospital. If they decide to run one they have to follow the same rules as every other hospital because that's what's best for society as a whole.

40 pages of posts, and finally we get to the essence of the matter. You are 100% correct. Thank you.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:20 pm

Detritus wrote:
Huckleby wrote:more snark from the peanut gallery.

I am a bit confused about abortofacients, birth control pills and lady parts. Please excuse my honesty.

I don't really care much about how those drugs work, it's not important to the discussion since the Catholic position is based on faith and perception, and I'm not trying to argue that the Catholic positions are correct.

OK, I give up. Either you don't actually exist except as an annoying bot (see Serdar Argic) or you are the most fundamentally disingenuous person on Earth. Your choice, and I don't care which you pick.

Newt Gingrich uses that word "fundamentally" all the time. I guess he thinks adding that stuffy but usually pointless word makes him sound learned.

Not sure what you find disingenuous, but probably you are criticizing what you don't understand.

Just because I respect, understand, explain one side of an argument doesn't mean I completely embrace it. The Catholics have some valid concerns, and I see a lot of bigotry directed at church from liberals. Therefore I defend them on where it is warranted. I am a pro-choice athiest, so my final analysis on issues are typically at odds with Catholic positions. Just because I want to see Muslims or Catholics treated fairly doesn't mean I agree with all of their agenda.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:42 pm

dave esmond wrote: Hospitals should all have the same rules. They're not churches and deciding what's best for someone should be between a patient and their doctor. All options should be on the table.

This is not realistic, even if it is a worthy ideal. For instance, you can't have the federal gov mandate that all hospitals provide abortions, you would start a civil war, and I mean a real shooting war.

dave esmond wrote:I get the problem Catholics have with this ruling. I'm sensitive to it. That still doesn't mean I think they should get everything they want when they deal with a larger society who doesn't agree with every last one of their wishes.
Well, the bishops aren't getting what they want. If the Republicans come to power, maybe they will get their full exemptions.

There is no way you are going to get exactly what you want either.

dave esmond wrote:You don't seem to believe the church should ever have to be on the giving end.
Huh? On the contraceptive-insurance battle, I support the compromise offered by Obama where the church gets about 10% of what they want. Our positions are not really that far apart.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:45 pm

Huckleby wrote:The Catholics have some valid concerns, and I see a lot of bigotry directed at church from liberals. Therefore I defend them on where it is warranted.

I know you've seen examples of bigotry on the part of the Church towards "liberals" (put in quotes because in my experience, the word is used to describe anyone who disagrees with the Church) so I know you know the bigotry exists on both sides.

And yet, I don't see you defending the liberals against that. The best I can come up with is you telling me (who spent about 18 years as a Catholic) that I'm as bad as "that priest over there."

Do you not defend liberals against the bigotry of the Church because they don't need it ie it isn't warranted, or is the Church's bigotry not as bad as the bigotry you're defending them from? Is it like that mortal vs venial sins thing?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:10 pm

rabble wrote:I know you've seen examples of bigotry on the part of the Church towards "liberals" (put in quotes because in my experience, the word is used to describe anyone who disagrees with the Church) so I know you know the bigotry exists on both sides.

I don't really think the church is particularly against liberals, in fact the church often aligns with liberals on economic justice issues. The abortion issue is the wedge.

I see the Catholic church a lot like I see Islam. Backward in many ways.
I believe that someday both Islam and Catholicism will accept gays and women as having all the rights and respect they deserve.

I don't see Catholic bigotry because I am not around a lot of catholics. I certainly come across hatred of liberals by conservatives.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:29 pm

Huckleby wrote:I don't really think the church is particularly against liberals, in fact the church often aligns with liberals on economic justice issues. The abortion issue is the wedge.

I see the Catholic church a lot like I see Islam. Backward in many ways.
I believe that someday both Islam and Catholicism will accept gays and women as having all the rights and respect they deserve.

I don't see Catholic bigotry because I am not around a lot of catholics. I certainly come across hatred of liberals by conservatives.

First you say you don't think the church is against liberals, then you say you don't see it because you're not around a lot of Catholics.

I asked you a while back if you didn't think the fact that I was raised Catholic might give me a little more insight into that religion than you, and you said you talked to lots of Catholics so you had a pretty good idea what they thought.

That whole logic pattern has a few inconsistencies for me. In fact I'm beginning to remember why I left Catholicism in the first place. You can't tell those guys nothin. Just like you, with all that freakin narrow minded thinking while you complain about all those other narrow minded people.

So I'm giving up.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:50 pm

rabble wrote:I asked you a while back if you didn't think the fact that I was raised Catholic might give me a little more insight into that religion than you, and you said you talked to lots of Catholics so you had a pretty good idea what they thought.
I also was raised Catholic. I'm familar with Catholicism from family & friends.

I have never seen Catholic bigotry towards liberals. But then again, I don't hang around any conservative Catholics, or spend time in a Catholic forum, so I don't have an opinion on your supposition.

I don't know what you are in a snit about.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:06 pm

So you never heard of the term "cafeteria Catholics"? That is what conservative Catholics can their brethren who don't completely toe the orthodox dogmatic line set by the Vatican.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:35 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:So you never heard of the term "cafeteria Catholics"? That is what conservative Catholics can their brethren who don't completely toe the orthodox dogmatic line set by the Vatican.

Since 98% of Catholics use contraceptives in their lifetime, then by your definition the 2% orthodox Catholics are wagging their fingers at the 98%. I don't think so.

I don't think I've heard the phrase "cafeteria Catholic" for 20 years. The part of my extended family that remains Catholic happens to be very liberal politically, so my perception is biased by that fact.

The association of catholic nuns was key in getting Obamacare passed.

I doubt liberals Catholics face bigotry, but who can say?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:38 am

The American Catholic hierarchy is still at it:

Catholic bishops say fight against White House mandate a top priority

Top U.S. Catholic bishops on Wednesday formally made their fight against a White House mandate for reproductive services the church’s top priority, saying “this struggle for religious freedom” demands their immediate attention.

The statement, issued by the leadership of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, came at the end of a closed, two-day meeting and as some close to the bishops say the men are concerned that their campaign is faltering in the public square.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:45 pm

Here is Senator 'sunspots' Johnson on the topic of access to birth control:

KEYES: What do you mean, “if you can’t afford it you can get it?”

JOHNSON: You can get it. Go online, type it in. It’s easy to get.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03 ... h-control/

Maybe he gets all his sex online, and just assumes that contraception is available as well.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Madsci » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:38 pm

I am grateful that I left the Catholic Church at age 14. There is a good chance I would have 6-12 children otherwise.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:56 pm

The Bishops are attempting one audacious beat-down of the nuns association:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

I would think this could lead to major upheaval. I'm surprised there isn't more in the news about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/pos ... _blog.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she ... _blog.html
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