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If the health care law goes down, then what?

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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:09 pm

Galoot wrote:Then Obama can be an amazing leader, and tell the American public, "look, the GOP are the ones who demanded we rid of the public single payer option from the health care act. To protect their monied special interests, they demanded that this individual mandate be added to the health care law before they would consider voting for it. Now we can go back and do it the RIGHT way, instituting a public single-payer option , a Medicare for everybody."

Yeah, then I woke up.

The mandate was born in the rightwing Heritage Foundation, and if it is the core of the healthcare plan as the administration contends, Obama has based his plan on a scheme that few like. In 2009 before Obama unveiled his plan, polls indicated 60% of Americans favored single payer. Instead, the Master of Marketing and Fakery maneuvered them into something they hadn't asked for. Yeah, it's time to wake up.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:18 pm

Stella_Guru wrote: In 2009 before Obama unveiled his plan, polls indicated 60% of Americans favored single payer. Instead, the Master of Marketing and Fakery maneuvered them into something they hadn't asked for. Yeah, it's time to wake up.


If you think he could have got single payer through congress, then you've got to wake up.

Stella_Guru wrote:The mandate was born in the rightwing Heritage Foundation


Funny, cause I don't know a single republican who likes this legislation.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Funny, cause I don't know a single republican who likes this legislation.


They pretty much all did until Obama adopted it as an alternative to single payer. A certain presidential candidate wrote a nice op-ed in support of it, another was the first to present it as an alternative to HillaryCare.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:46 pm

It seems to me that if the mandate could be struck down, the entire rest of the bill, including insurance reform, could be left intact. States would be free to impose a mandate if they see fit.

Nobody is talking about this option, so I hardly think the Supreme Court will consider this argument.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:28 pm

They're talking about that very option today fro what I read.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:19 pm

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_argume ... 11-393.pdf

I got through half of the morning transcript. Yes, you are right, Sotomayor at least argued the point. The conservative attorney said that congress considered and rejected the possibly of state mandates. The comments from the 5 conservative judges are all just harshly critical of any notion that the law represents the will of congress if you remove the mandate.

I don't think this hearing is a conversation in any sense. All the justices have made up their minds, they are not responding to what anybody else says. They clearly favor policy based on their ideology. Sickening, really.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby snoqueen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:22 pm

PelosiReidCare will be repealed, and the new congress will have an opportunity to create a universal tax to pay for people who can't pay for emergency room and catastrophic medical care.


We don't know what the SC is going to do with today's question (how to deal with the rest of the bill apart from individual mandate), but if the above happens, how else will we pay for such care?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... ml?hpid=z2

This oped writer offers one possibility, and it's not far from "a universal tax to pay for people who can't pay for emergency room and catastrophic medical care." All made possible by your friendly USSC conservatives.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Meade » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:50 pm

I wonder if E.J. Dionne Jr. even bothered looking at that PDF he links to. I doubt it. The proposal he refers to was for states to pass health insurance plans similar to the Massachusetts health care insurance reform law in which the state of Massachusetts mandates citizens to purchase insurance - not for the federal government to expand it's powers. The federal government has limited powers. Limited and enumerated powers. All other powers are left to the states and to the people.
10th Amendment to the US Constitution.
Ever heard of it?
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby fennel » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:06 pm

Huckleby wrote:It seems to me that if the mandate could be struck down, the entire rest of the bill, including insurance reform, could be left intact. States would be free to impose a mandate if they see fit.
I just had this image of the mandate being optional but tied to federal highway funding. Scooter would scramble to push through a mandate to appease his donors.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby snoqueen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:46 pm

I wonder if E.J. Dionne Jr. even bothered looking at that PDF he links to. I doubt it. The proposal he refers to was for states to pass health insurance plans similar to the Massachusetts health care insurance reform law...


What proposal? Or which page of what pdf? Dionne links to both the pdf of a transcript of Tuesday's USSC session and the Heritage Foundation's Butler pdf. The Butler [Heritage] pdf only refers to state-by-state plans when discussing Medicaid. Otherwise it's talking about how the foundation thinks a federal health program ought to work, as you can tell by the way it refers to the foundation's own monograph A National Health System for America on page 5. (Forum participants may find this whole pdf interesting -- it sounds positively good-hearted and liberal compared with some of what comes from the right wing these days, though it's only a couple decades old. I found it fascinating reading.)

Sorry for any confusion here but we have to know what's being referred to before we can talk about it.

From the same op-ed, here's a link to a fine discussion of how the SC's definition of "freedom" doesn't sound very, well, liberating.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ingle.html
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby sallybell » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:00 pm

Meade: how do you feel about EMTALA? Do you think it should be repealed, or do you think it should stay?
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby sallybell » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:24 pm

I feel like I kill a discussion every time I ask Meade a question, but I'll repeat: Meade, your feelings on EMTALA? I really do want to know. In my mind, EMTALA and the Affordable Care Act are closely related to each other, and to really understand your position on what you call "Obamacare," I'd like to hear your opinion of EMTALA.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby David Marshall » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:21 pm

sallybell wrote: In my mind, EMTALA and the Affordable Care Act are closely related to each other, ...


Yes, like Mr. Jing and Mrs. Jang. I can't understand how the approach of the individual mandate is NOW such a problem with the folks who now rage on about it, especially since that Heritage et. al. chucked out there in the first place. On a very curious note I heard a local conservative talker, this morning, asserting that regular visits to your physician are a waste. Very brutal, and very very sad.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Huckleby » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:55 am

sallybell wrote:Meade: how do you feel about EMTALA? Do you think it should be repealed, or do you think it should stay?

I guess that if you walked out on the street and took a poll, 1 in 100 people could tell you what EMTALA means. I am the 99%.
Last edited by Huckleby on Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If the health care law goes down, then what?

Postby Huckleby » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:10 am

David Marshall wrote: I can't understand how the approach of the individual mandate is NOW such a problem with the folks who now rage on about it, especially since that Heritage et. al. chucked out there in the first place .


I am not angry at conservatives for seeing the individual mandate as unconstitutional, that is a credible argument. I am angry at liberal politicians, pundits, and constitutional experts for their hubris and narrow mindedness in not envisioning an alternative perspective. The health care bill could have easily been crafted to protect it from the challenge we see now.

It matters not a bit that the arguments espoused by the tea party and their advocates on the Supreme Court narrowly equates broccolli with health care. It is absolutely true that the federal government is forcing citizens to purchase a product in the private market, and this opens a vulnerability, an opportunity to say this is a new and intrusive attempt at commerce regulation. Never mind that health care is a unique market with implicit participation through emergency rooms, ideological bias leads all of us all to devalue inconvienent factors.

I am in despair. This decision will hurt far worse than Gore v. Bush because it will take decades to unravel, in a budgetary climate unfavorable to expanding health care access.
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