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"Curveball"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: "Curveball"

Postby jonnygothispen » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:18 pm

A great Mother Jones expose' detailing how Cheney created the lies to go to war... http://motherjones.com/politics/2004/01/lie-factory
Kwiatkowski, 43, a now-retired Air Force officer who served in the Pentagon's Near East and South Asia (NESA) unit in the year before the invasion of Iraq, observed how the Pentagon's Iraq war-planning unit manufactured scare stories about Iraq's weapons and ties to terrorists. "It wasn't intelligence‚ -- it was propaganda," she says. "They'd take a little bit of intelligence, cherry-pick it, make it sound much more exciting, usually by taking it out of context, often by juxtaposition of two pieces of information that don't belong together." It was by turning such bogus intelligence into talking points for U.S. officials‚



What they actually knew...I couldn't find a suitable link, so here's the article I saved.
Senate: Saddam saw al-Qaida as threat; By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer~ Fri Sep 8, 2006

Saddam Hussein regarded al-Qaida as a threat rather than a possible ally, a Senate report says, contradicting assertions President Bush has used to build support for the war in Iraq.

Released Friday, the report discloses for the first time an October 2005 CIA assessment that before the war, Saddam's government "did not have a relationship, harbor or turn a blind eye toward" al-Qaida operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or his associates.

Saddam told U.S. officials after his capture that he had not cooperated with Osama bin Laden even though he acknowledged that officials in his government had met with the al-Qaida leader, according to FBI summaries cited in the Senate report.

"Saddam only expressed negative sentiments about bin Laden," Tariq Aziz, the Iraqi leader's top aide, told the FBI.

As recently as an Aug. 21 news conference, Bush said people should "imagine a world in which you had Saddam Hussein" with the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction and "who had relations with Zarqawi."

Democrats contended that the administration continues to use faulty intelligence, including assertions of a link between Saddam's government and the recently killed al-Zarqawi, to justify the war in Iraq.

According to the report, postwar findings indicate that Saddam "was distrustful of al-Qaida and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime."

It said al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad from May until late November 2002. But "postwar information indicates that Saddam Hussein attempted, unsuccessfully, to locate and capture al-Zarqawi and that the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi."
In June 2004, Bush defended Vice President Dick Cheney's assertion that Saddam had "long-established ties" with al-Qaida. "Zarqawi is the best evidence of connection to al-Qaida affiliates and al-Qaida," the president said.

The report concludes that postwar findings do not support a 2002 intelligence report that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program, possessed biological weapons or had ever developed mobile facilities for producing biological warfare agents.

"The report is a devastating indictment of the Bush-Cheney administration's unrelenting, misleading and deceptive attempts to convince the American people that Saddam Hussein was linked with al-Qaida," said Sen. Carl Levin (news, bio, voting record), D-Mich., a member of the committee.
Levin and Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, the top Democrat on the panel, said Tenet told the committee last July that in 2002 he had complied with an administration request "to say something about not being inconsistent with what the president had said" about the Saddam-terrorist link.

They said that on Oct. 7, 2002, the same day Bush gave a speech speaking of such a link, the CIA had sent a declassified letter to the committee saying it would be an "extreme step" for Saddam to assist Islamist terrorists in attacking the United States.

They said Tenet acknowledged to the committee that subsequently issuing a statement that there was no inconsistency between the president's speech and the CIA viewpoint was "the wrong thing to do."

The panel report is Phase II of an analysis of prewar intelligence on Iraq. The first phase, issued in July 2004, focused on the CIA's failings in its estimates of Iraq's weapons program.

The second phase had been delayed as Republicans and Democrats fought over what information should be declassified and how far the committee should delve into the question of whether policymakers may have manipulated intelligence to make the case for war.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby David Marshall » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:25 pm

kurt_w wrote:I still can't grasp how the Iraq war fiasco -- we went to war on a lie! -- hasn't led to the complete destruction of the Republican Party.


Well maybe it has to do with certain talented spit-weasels who have some understanding of how we collectively think. I know I have quoted the below previously, but I find such statements instructive.

"October 17, 2004, The New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush (later attributed to Karl Rove):
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby bdog » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:16 pm

green union terrace chair wrote:The true purpose was to establish a permanent presence in the region to counter Iran as well as hedge our positions on China.

The war in Iraq may have been sold on a lie, but it was no mistake.

Yup. "based on a lie" - yes. "all for a bunch of lies" - no.

Deep down people know their government does shitty things to further the cause of democracy and an SUV in every driveway.

That's why the Republican party is still is business.

Face it - we live in a shitty world. Always has been, always will be. You just don't realize it because we're still in the warm fuzzy bubble.

That won't last too much longer.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby jonnygothispen » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:38 pm

bdog wrote:Yup. "based on a lie" - yes. "all for a bunch of lies" - no.

Deep down people know their government does shitty things to further the cause of democracy and an SUV in every driveway.

That's why the Republican party is still is business.

Face it - we live in a shitty world. Always has been, always will be. You just don't realize it because we're still in the warm fuzzy bubble.

That won't last too much longer.
"Face reality, give up. Turn to the dark side like I have and you won't be disappointed."
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby rabble » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:42 pm

bdog wrote:Face it - we live in a shitty world. Always has been, always will be. You just don't realize it because we're still in the warm fuzzy bubble.

That won't last too much longer.

Actually several parts of the world aren't that shitty, and we used to live in one of them. Just because this country is going downhill on a rocket sled doesn't mean the world is.

Granted, we've got our fat fingers in so many pies that when we go under it's going to rock a lot of boats, but they have the advantage of hundreds of years of experience recovering from things like economic upheaval, invasions, and et ceteras. We're just starting that little tradition and when everybody figures out the bubble burst a while ago, yes it's gonna be interesting.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:32 am

bdog wrote:
green union terrace chair wrote:The true purpose was to establish a permanent presence in the region to counter Iran as well as hedge our positions on China.

The war in Iraq may have been sold on a lie, but it was no mistake.

Yup. "based on a lie" - yes. "all for a bunch of lies" - no.

Deep down people know their government does shitty things to further the cause of democracy and an SUV in every driveway.

Deep down, did you support Bush when he initially attacked Iraq? If so, for what reason(s)?

Just curious.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:03 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:"Face reality, give up. Turn to the dark side like I have and you won't be disappointed."

Welcome to the "dark" side. The basis of our trouble is not war but the presence of a system in Washington of entrenched double-talkers, double-dealers, liars, robbers, and murderers who ignore the constitution, violate treaties, fill their pockets out of the public treasury, and arrange for assassinations; a system that produces war as surely as an apple tree produces apples. To be rid of war we must change the causes producing it, but good luck with that as the warfare society is very well-rooted and are handing the U.S.A. public the bill toasting and roasting babies. Image
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby David Marshall » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:07 pm

Cynical, realistic, pragmatic? Is that where this is going? I do not believe that the vibe of this thread, while cathartic, is a good place to go. Governance for and by the people takes all of our action. Our collective inaction leads to even deeper structural problems. Anybody have any suggestions?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby bdog » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:24 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Deep down, did you support Bush when he initially attacked Iraq? If so, for what reason(s)?

Just curious.

Yes, based on Powell's testimony.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby bdog » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:27 am

David Marshall wrote:Anybody have any suggestions?

Go read a history book. Ignore all the empires that have had a "rise and fall" and just go to the one that has only risen and risen for a thousand years. Learn from that.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:22 pm

bdog wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Deep down, did you support Bush when he initially attacked Iraq? If so, for what reason(s)?

Just curious.

Yes, based on Powell's testimony.

That was after the invasion. And even Powell didn't believe his own testimony.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:12 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:That was after the invasion.


Er, what?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:33 pm

kurt_w wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:That was after the invasion.


Er, what?

I stand corrected. The speech was just prior to Shock and Awe (although the U.S. attempted to take out Iraqi air defenses early in Bush's first term).

Powell later referred to his speech as the low point in his life.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:55 pm

This has been hashed over ad nauseum, but there were plenty of clues that the Bush administration was going to attack no matter what. There was also plenty of doubt as to the reliability of our intelligence.

For instance (via Wikipedia):
As of February 2003, the IAEA "found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq"; the IAEA concluded that certain items which could have been used in nuclear enrichment centrifuges, such as aluminum tubes, were in fact intended for other uses. UNMOVIC "did not find evidence of the continuation or resumption of programs of weapons of mass destruction" or significant quantities of proscribed items. UNMOVIC did supervise the destruction of a small number of empty chemical rocket warheads, 50 liters of mustard gas that had been declared by Iraq and sealed by UNSCOM in 1998, and laboratory quantities of a mustard gas precursor, along with about 50 Al-Samoud missiles of a design that Iraq stated did not exceed the permitted 150 km range, but which had travelled up to 183 km in tests. Shortly before the invasion, UNMOVIC stated that it would take "months" to verify Iraqi compliance with resolution 1441.

Naturally, UNMOVIC weren't given the time they needed.

This was not a secret. In fact, I distinctly remember reading several days' worth of exactly these news items in the Wisconsin State Journal, albeit relegated to small articles several pages in.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby David Marshall » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:12 pm

bdog wrote:
David Marshall wrote:Anybody have any suggestions?

Go read a history book. Ignore all the empires that have had a "rise and fall" and just go to the one that has only risen and risen for a thousand years. Learn from that.


Ah...ya, great and thanks for fingering historical insight. Historical context, while immensly insightful, is not nessessarily a relevant suggestion for fighters.
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