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fix healthcare

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Something has to spring-up from the ashes of Obamacare. The current situation is unsustainable morally & fiscally.

What about this idea: A medicare-like insurance plan for all Americans with about a $20,000 deductable.

This is going to fix the worst financial craziness. The high value medical procedures and bankruptcies are already destructive forces that touch everyone, the damages are already socialized.

Most Americans will be paying 100% of their medical expenses out of pocket, which is the dream of conservatives for price control.

There will also have to be some sort of means-tested subsidy, perhaps through tax system, so poor and elderly can afford care. Still, everyone will pay some share of their medical costs.

Here's what I expect this system will eventually eliminate:
1) Medicare
2) Medicaid
3) Insurance Companies
4) Employer-based health care, including destructive tax incentives & personal insecurity
5) medical bankruptcies
6) fear, loathing
Last edited by Huckleby on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus walked to Calvary for You,You can fix healthcare 4

Postby gargantua » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:29 pm

This was an unfortunate choice of a thread title in my opinion, unless you really expect Jesus to solve this problem.

Everyone has a stake in how the health care issue is dealt with. I've had a hard time with "Obamacare" because it actually made my personal situation worse. I'm 59. As a result of my employment situation and willingness to go to work no matter how I felt for nearly 40 years, my health care is paid for, about 95%, until I'm 70, or maybe 71. Obviously, then there is what's left of Medicare after Paul Ryan's tender mercies.

By raising premiums, Obamacare hurts me. Up to a point, I can live with that. But I worked for decades to secure a future. I gave things up to earn it. Don't tell me to just shut up because some other people went for the short term dollars and are unhappy now. And leave poor Jesus out of this. I bet His position on the Bush tax cuts would be, no position.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:04 pm

OK, I nixed thread title, it was confusing. The meaning was clear to me and unoffensive, but joke was obscure.
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fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:20 pm

gargantua wrote: I'm 59. As a result of my employment situation and willingness to go to work no matter how I felt for nearly 40 years, my health care is paid for, about 95%, until I'm 70, or maybe 71. .

You left out one key factor: you have been very fortunate. A lot of people don't have a shot at such a premium health care plan. And some older people lose employment due to no fault of their own, for a variety of reasons.

gargantua wrote:By raising premiums, Obamacare hurts me.

Obamacare did NOT raise your premiums. The line that Obamacare has raised premiums (appreciably) is a lie. Studies have shown that Obamacare accounts for 6% of the increase in 2011. Not 6% increase, 6% of the increase. Study was published in journal "Health Affairs", which I know because it was explained by the editor on a panel discussion.

It's impossible to discuss Obamacare anymore because the propoganda has completely polarized and misinformed people. But it's likely that Obamacare is dead, so for sake of discussion lets move on.

It sounds to me you oppose ANY change to health care system because you are sitting pretty. And you justify by implying that people who don't have decent health care are frivilous. I won't try and change your mind, I know when I'm beat.
Last edited by Huckleby on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:44 am

Huckleby wrote:Something has to spring-up from the ashes of Obamacare. The current situation is unsustainable morally & fiscally.

What about this idea: A medicare-like insurance plan for all Americans with about a $20,000 deductable.

This is going to fix the worst financial craziness. The high value medical procedures and bankruptcies are already destructive forces that touch everyone, the damages are already socialized.

Most Americans will be paying 100% of their medical expenses out of pocket, which is the dream of conservatives for price control.

There will also have to be some sort of means-tested subsidy, perhaps through tax system, so poor and elderly can afford care. Still, everyone will pay some share of their medical costs.

Here's what I expect this system will eventually eliminate:
1) Medicare
2) Medicaid
3) Insurance Companies
4) Employer-based health care, including destructive tax incentives & personal insecurity
5) medical bankruptcies
6) fear, loathing


There is only one solution, and that is single payer.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:37 am

wack wack wrote:There is only one solution, and that is single payer.


"Single payer" has become a sort of utopian bumper sticker. It is easy to understand, and it (theoretically, at least) makes every citizen equal in their access to health care resources.

It's certainly not true that a medicare-for-all structure is the only way to deliver universal health care. Countries that do a better job (costs, health outcomes) do not adopt that approach.

Maybe you are right that politically the only way to move forward is to wait for our health care system to collapse so thoroughly that the public will be willing to accept complete government take over. This is grim thought. The REpubicans would have to shrink to a small minority for this to happen, unemployment high as health care costs strangle economy. I'm not sure this is a moral or realistic strategy.

My gut reaction to the looming death of OBamacare is to just call for medicare-for-all and start the long siege. But my head says try and fix the problems with compromise, that way our children will benefit, rather than having to wait for our grandchildren or great grandchildren to catch a break.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby gargantua » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:39 am

Huckleby wrote:You left out one key factor: you have been very fortunate.
gargantua wrote:By raising premiums, Obamacare hurts me.

It sounds to me you oppose ANY change to health care system because you are sitting pretty. And you justify by implying that people who don't have decent health care are frivilous. I won't try and change your mind, I know when I'm beat.


Thanks for changing the thread title. You left out the part of my post where I said, "Up to a point, I can live with that." That meant that I am willing to accept some reasonable level of sacrifice so that everyone has access to health care other than by showing up at the emergency room.

I won't argue that I've been fortunate, but you seem to imply it was just blind luck. It wasn't. I chose my career path to obtain exactly what it yielded. Fortunately for me, it turned out well. Doesn't mean I don't give a damn about anybody else, nor do I believe people do without for frivolous reasons. I know how much even halfway decent insurance costs, and I know it is simply beyond the means of too many people.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby green union terrace chair » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:30 pm

I am very happy with Group Health Cooperative. I want to stick with them and don't want to be forced onto some other system.

The real question is, why aren't there more GHC-like orgs out there? Is the barrier-to-entry too high in markets with established health care companies?
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby wack wack » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:
wack wack wrote:There is only one solution, and that is single payer.


"Single payer" has become a sort of utopian bumper sticker. It is easy to understand, and it (theoretically, at least) makes every citizen equal in their access to health care resources.

It's certainly not true that a medicare-for-all structure is the only way to deliver universal health care. Countries that do a better job (costs, health outcomes) do not adopt that approach.

Maybe you are right that politically the only way to move forward is to wait for our health care system to collapse so thoroughly that the public will be willing to accept complete government take over. This is grim thought. The REpubicans would have to shrink to a small minority for this to happen, unemployment high as health care costs strangle economy. I'm not sure this is a moral or realistic strategy.

My gut reaction to the looming death of OBamacare is to just call for medicare-for-all and start the long siege. But my head says try and fix the problems with compromise, that way our children will benefit, rather than having to wait for our grandchildren or great grandchildren to catch a break.


There is no reasonable free market, private sector solution. Greed makes certain of that.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:52 pm

gargantua wrote:you seem to imply it was just blind luck. It wasn't. I chose my career path to obtain exactly what it yielded.

I didn't say your relatively comfortably position came from blind luck.
Our economy doesn't provide enough jobs with health benefits, and even people who work hard and make good choices can end up knocked out of their perch. And as a matter of a decent society, I say give health care access to the lazy and untalented too. I get that you don't particularly disagree with me on this point.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:01 pm

wack wack wrote:There is no reasonable free market, private sector solution. Greed makes certain of that.

No aware person would suggest that the health care market can work without regulation.
To throw-out all market forces, and setup government operated health care has proven to be folly. Great Britian and Canada are both trying to encourage more private participation into their insurance and care delivery so they can achieve the efficiencies of superior mixed systems.

The ideological free market vrs. government debate really is an unproductive paralyser when it comes to health care. Significant government involvement is going to be needed, but there are many different mixes of public-private that will work.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Galoot » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:05 pm

I'm no expert on this by any means, but I tend to agree with Huck on this one--single payer is NOT the only solution. If you look at the various health care systems of those nations that have the best health care, some are single payer, but many are not. The Netherlands is often held up as a great example of universal coverage, and they basically have something like the Affordable Heatlh Care Act implemented there--although I am fairly sure that those who cannot afford the premiums get government assistance to pay them. I know that is the case in Japan.

Several European nations have a regulated insurance industry like the Dutch, rather than a Canadian-style single payer plan. There are a lot of ways to get there, but they all definitely involve tight government regulation of what a "proper health care plan" looks like.

I'd like to see single payer in the U.S., but I don't think it is the only way to get universal coverage. I favor it only because I don't think the U.S. insurance industry will put up with being regulated to the degree required, and therefore they need to be bypassed completely.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:23 pm

Galoot wrote:I'd like to see single payer in the U.S., but I don't think it is the only way to get universal coverage. I favor it only because I don't think the U.S. insurance industry will put up with being regulated to the degree required, and therefore they need to be bypassed completely.


The plan I proposed actually does phase private insurers out, and probably completely. It is a cross between single payer and consumer-based. The government will insure all of us against high medical bills (20K). There will be no claims-settlements with government or private insurance for most medical expenses.
Obviously some people will still need help paying bills, so subsidies from gov too.

Most people have to pay medical bill out of pocket. But then again, they aren't paying for health insurance.

I'm an Obamacare fan, highly regulated private insurers appear to be optimal solution. But I expect Obamacare has been killed by our Supreme Leader, Justice Kennedy, so need to find creative way to skin cat without getting half the country's undies in bundle.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:34 am

We ought to be looking at the vested interests who deliberately devitalize, drug, and poison for profit; the food processors, drug manufacturers and their immense sums spent for advertising propaganda, lobbying and other types of "public relations". Short of that, poultices and tinctures, doubling the recommended dosage of Advil and chasing it with strong, black coffee, tapping into various more or less obscure sources of electro-magnetic cosmic energy, canned heat and learning to live with what ails you are the choices. As far as dental care, Catfish has been showing me innovative methods of pulling my own teeth.
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Re: fix healthcare

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:58 am

Looks like the acid just kicked in.
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