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Affirmative Action

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:53 am

Bludgeon wrote:
Democratic US Senator Jimm Webb, 2010 wrote:Lyndon Johnson's initial program for affirmative action was based on the 13th Amendment and on the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which authorized the federal government to take actions in order to eliminate "the badges of slavery." Affirmative action was designed to recognize the uniquely difficult journey of African-Americans. This policy was justifiable and understandable, even to those who came from white cultural groups that had also suffered in socio-economic terms from the Civil War and its aftermath.

The injustices endured by black Americans at the hands of their own government have no parallel in our history, not only during the period of slavery but also in the Jim Crow era that followed. But the extrapolation of this logic to all "people of color"—especially since 1965, when new immigration laws dramatically altered the demographic makeup of the U.S.—moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites. It has also lessened the focus on assisting African-Americans, who despite a veneer of successful people at the very top still experience high rates of poverty, drug abuse, incarceration and family breakup.
Webb expresses my own view well.

But I am not for dismantling Affirmative Action entirely. Specifically, we are talking about college admissions. I want to make preferences income-based, which will indirectly continue to level the playing field for minorities.

Nobody, conservative or liberal, has hazarded an opinion on my hybrid approach. I take this reticence as a brutal rejection, or as Sally Fields might say, "you don't like me, you really, really don't like me."
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:30 am

Huckleby wrote:Webb expresses my own view well.

But I am not for dismantling Affirmative Action entirely. Specifically, we are talking about college admissions. I want to make preferences income-based, which will indirectly continue to level the playing field for minorities.

Nobody, conservative or liberal, has hazarded an opinion on my hybrid approach. I take this reticence as a brutal rejection, or as Sally Fields might say, "you don't like me, you really, really don't like me."


People will have a lot of opinions soon enough when the Supreme Court takes the issue up, but neither you or Webb will find that many people on the left willing to admit that their law would help a lot more people if it were updated. Sure most of the scoffers made their nest egg before equality laws went spiralling out of proportion, but most won't budge an inch.

Basically its because they win the votes they get by giving people stuff. Like fire chief promotions on the east coast to people who couldn't pass the regular test so they sue for a test that nobody could fail, just to make sure the right jobs go to the "right people". Without giving more to one group than is fair to another, what do they have to offer their coalition? Racism has to always be labelled "worse than its ever been", that's a central tenet they need to mobilize the evangelical faction of the progressive left. Anybody who disagrees is a racist - including you, if it comes down to it.

Its not a black/brown vs. white world to me, but they *need* it to be. They don't care what's right. They're just as glad to lose Webb as they would be to lose any Democrat who doesn't agree.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:41 am

Bludgeon, you just gave a canned speech against affirmative action. I get why people are for or against it, having heard the same arguments for 35 years.

Are you willing to support affirmative action if it is done strictly for low income people?
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:23 am

Huckleby wrote:Are you willing to support affirmative action if it is done strictly for low income people?

But we already have that. Progressive taxation. So-called Earned Income Credit. Student Loan Program. Social Security. Medicaid. Obamacare.

Oh, or are you just saying: I want more... and more... so give it to me.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:24 am

Yeah. Its not my idea of a perfect solution but that would be a really good thing for people trying to work their way out of poverty. There have been a few notable Democrats, technically even the president, calling for a change to better affect people of low income, recognizing that a sheer color stamp is also canned, in this time.

Personally I would take any improvement. Though in a lot of ways I think the law should only benefit descendents of African slaves in America. I strongly oppose late breaking efforts to use equality laws to give foreign minorities an advantaged that was intended to be a *protection* for African Americans trying to learn and work their way upward.

Logically, this law should have a sunset. It would be less harmful to individuals if it were ultimately replaced with legislation specifically designed to handle income inequality.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:34 am

The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from 2009.

Pew Research Center

While the data is a few years old, I doubt if the gap has narrowed.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:15 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from 2009.

Pew Research Center

While the data is a few years old, I doubt if the gap has narrowed.

And to think, all I had to do was open the link, Ctrl+F, search "income".
same article wrote:It is different from household income, which measures the annual inflow of wages, interest, profits and other sources of earning. Wealth gaps between whites, blacks and Hispanics have always been much greater than income gaps.

Pew Research Center
"Wealth Gap", deconstructed:

Demographics: most minorities live in a city environment; most people in a city rent, rather than own. As a renter, what wealth does a person have to measure? Usually, that answer is a car and a savings account. Do you think a white-to-black median wealth ratio would be 20 to 1 in the suburbs? Meanwhile a large section of the white population lives in more rural areas. Many of them inherit property that has been fully paid off. Unless their parents are immortal, its safe to assume that much of what they count as wealth doesn't come to them from their low wage job at Hardware Hank.

But Affirmative Action laws do not affect wealth. You don't apply for "wealth", you apply for a job. Not even this government can legislate "wealth". Try again?
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:33 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from 2009.

Pew Research Center

While the data is a few years old, I doubt if the gap has narrowed.

Why did you leave out Asians? Could it be racism?
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:38 pm

Bludgeon wrote:But Affirmative Action laws do not affect wealth. You don't apply for "wealth", you apply for a job. Not even this government can legislate "wealth".

Not exactly true.

Huckleby wrote:To the considerable extent that blacks & hispanics have not achieved economic equality, well, they would be proportionally aided by income-based AA.

When Huckleby appeals for "income-based AA", he is "applying for wealth".
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:44 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from 2009.

Pew Research Center

While the data is a few years old, I doubt if the gap has narrowed.


OK.
Does this mean you would sign-on to affirmative action based strictly on income?

There may be a smaller proportion of mionorities than whites that have achieved middle class status, but that doesn't mean helping middle class minorities who come form richer families should be prioritized.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:48 pm

Meade wrote: When Huckleby appeals for "income-based AA", he is "applying for wealth".

Huh? Sounds like you are channelling the old false argument that liberals want equality of outcomes. No, well-intentioned people are looking to produce greater equality of opportunity. Kids from poor families often have poor preparation for college, prefering them for college admissions levels the opportunity playing field. Talk to any recent college grad to see if that degree was a guarantee of wealth.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:54 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Yeah. Its not my idea of a perfect solution but that would be a really good thing for people trying to work their way out of poverty. There have been a few notable Democrats, technically even the president, calling for a change to better affect people of low income, recognizing that a sheer color stamp is also canned, in this time.

Personally I would take any improvement. Though in a lot of ways I think the law should only benefit descendents of African slaves in America. I strongly oppose late breaking efforts to use equality laws to give foreign minorities an advantaged that was intended to be a *protection* for African Americans trying to learn and work their way upward.

Logically, this law should have a sunset. It would be less harmful to individuals if it were ultimately replaced with legislation specifically designed to handle income inequality.


Your post is very confusing. Sounds like you (gudgingly) will sign-on to income-based affirmative action. OK, I'll take.
But then you go on to say that only descendents of slaves should be eligible? We're back to square one.
And why would you sunset a poverty-based affirmative action program?

Lets try it another way: you say my proposal is not a perfect solution. What is your perfect implementation of affirmative action? ("don't have it" is a valid answer)
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:17 pm

I think its a bad law in its current application. I think it was a good idea; and you could at least call it a pretty good law in a time when it was commonly understood who it was meant to apply to.

Its current application is so egregious that if it is kept, it needs an amendment designating the descendents of African slaves in America as its sole beneficiaries, then add your proposal that it should also be income based. Then it would be a good law; but it would be outdated.

Your proposal would be better as its own law because the language and the tradition of the Affirmative Action legislation would be harmful to the implementation of the new amendment. So I think any changes to the law would be most effective if they:

1). Began with a more specific definition of who the original law is intended to apply to.

2). Finish by amending the law to apply only to those who fit low income status.

3). Eventually repeal the law and replace it with a more modern law that focuses on the crucial income related difficulties that people of modest means experience. Its not the marks of slavery we need to address today, but the marks of poverty.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:22 pm

Bludgeon wrote: 3). Eventually repeal the law and replace it with a more modern law that focuses on the crucial income related difficulties


OK. I don't quite understand why you think the law can't just be updated directly. But at any rate, I expect the SC will strike-down race-based college admissions preferences in the fall. Hopefully the response will be to create poverty-based preferences.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:05 pm

Huckleby wrote:Hopefully the response will be to create poverty-based preferences.

Because, when it comes to college, nothing predicts success like poverty.
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