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Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:41 am

Rich Schultz wrote:If the liberals on this forum are so unhappy with the inconvenience of dealing with the DMV over something as simple as obtaining an ID why do they want to inflict a similar bureaucracy on our medical system?

Image


Wow, somehow we've got 6 degrees of separation from voter id laws to the affordable health care act. Bravo tool, bravo.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:47 am

DCB wrote:
snoqueen wrote:... the state of Pennsylvania has made an astounding admission in a court filing:


So I've heard.


Sorry I linked to the exact same situation you did earlier. My bad.

But I'd still like some replies to those questions I posted. Do you Voter ID believers still think Wisconsin is trying to protect election integrity with this law?

I'm expecting a big silence, which sometimes comes in the form of trying to change the subject. If it's bureaucracy you want to discuss, though, let's start with the wonderful convenience, simplicity, and clarity of getting medical claims paid in the present insurance system, or even finding out how much something is going to cost.

But in a new topic, not this one.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:20 am

snoqueen wrote:But I'd still like some replies to those questions I posted. Do you Voter ID believers still think Wisconsin is trying to protect election integrity with this law?

Me too. I'd particularly like to hear from AG Van Hollen defend the WI law. You'll recall that he personally led an investigation into 'voter fraud' some years back, and came up with pretty much nothing.

If someone keeps making lots of different arguments, and none of them make sense, its a pretty good bet that they're lying about the real reason.

Grothman, however, is too stupid to lie.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/0 ... -voter-id/
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:56 pm

Pennsylvania's voter ID law is being challenged on similar grounds to Wisconsin's.

The first round of the 2012 election is being waged in courtrooms across the country, and those challenging a wave of tough voter identification laws are finding state courts a more hospitable environment than the traditional civil rights venue of the federal courthouse.
...
“Under the case law and the express terms of the Pennsylvania Constitution, it is doubtful that there is any governmental interest that can justify depriving voters of their constitutional right,” said a brief filed on behalf of 10 individuals and groups such as the NAACP and League of Women Voters.

The strategy of filing challenges in state court has succeeded in Missouri and Wisconsin, where judges have relied on voting rights protections enshrined in state constitutions to block laws requiring voters to present photo identification.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:21 pm

Now that I think about it, I've got even more questions for the Voter ID true believers:

How do you feel about belonging to a party whose leadership thinks the best way to work with its voters is to mislead them about the actual purposes of proposed legislation? How do you feel about legislation whose purpose might be controversial, so your party leadership conceals that purpose and comes up with a different (and demonstrably false) one to mask the truth?

How do you make your best judgment on whom to vote for and what legislation to favor, if the candidates' intents and the legislation's purposes are being deliberately misrepresented because the party leadership believes they could lose votes if it were revealed? Do you assume they just know what's best, or do you do independent research and dig up and analyze new facts for yourself?

And do you think our elections are safe from fraudulent vote tabulation?

I don't mean to sound overly cynical here (though I suppose I am) but if I were a Republican voter the Voter ID switcheroo would be like the little rock that let go and set off an avalanche: an avalanche of doubts and questions over what other misleading information might be emanating from party headquarters or higher-ups. The Republican electorate deserves better treatment than this, and winning is not the only thing that counts.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:04 pm

Ari Berman has been doing good stuff on this issue in the Nation.

The latest is 'early voting' in Ohio:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/169284/oh ... ty-voters#
Now, in heavily Democratic cities like Cleveland, Columbus, Akron and Toledo, early voting hours will be limited to 8 am until 5 pm on weekdays beginning on October 1, with no voting at night or during the weekend, when it’s most convenient for working people to vote.
..
Yet in solidly Republican counties like Warren and Butler, GOP election commissioners have approved expanded early voting hours on nights and weekends. Noted the Cincinnati Enquirer: “The counties where Husted has joined other Republicans to deny expanded early voting strongly backed then-candidate Barack Obama in 2008, while most of those where the extra hours will stand heavily supported GOP nominee John McCain.” Moreover, budget constraints have not stopped Republican legislators from passing costly voter ID laws across the map since 2010.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:11 am

Pennsylvania Judge Upholds Voter ID Law

A Pennsylvania judge on Wednesday refused to grant an injunction on a new voter identification law that Democrats say could harm President Obama’s re-election chances by unfairly targeting minorities, college students and others in a key swing state.

The decision by Robert Simpson, a commonwealth court judge, clears the way for Pennsylvania to require voters in the Nov. 6 general election to produce photo identification before they are allowed to cast ballots.
...
The American Civil Liberties Union is expected to appeal the decision to the State Supreme Court, which is split evenly between Democrats and Republicans. A tie would affirm the law.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:45 am

Went and voted yesterday in a referendum on some Constitutional Amendments. I voted, along with a million or so others.

Had to show my SEC issued Voter ID card
Had to have my fingers UV scanned
Had to sign in
Had to dip my finger in special UV ink
Had to mark my paper ballot with a pen
(Had to take a picture of the ballot to assure my wife that I voted correctly)
Had to deposit it in a ballot box

Polls closed at 3PM.

We had initial results by 6PM or so, final, though uncertified, results by the 11 o'clock news.

Many unhappy about the results but, as always, no questions or even jokes about the integrity of the process.

Just another routine election here in Puerto Rico.

If it is so simple that even the proverbial caveman can do it, why is it so hard in Wisconsin and elsewhere?

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:00 am

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:23 pm



Yeah, right.

That article has been floating around for a while.

This quickly turned out to be a whole lot of nothing. A lot of people suspect that it is a scam to bring in voting machines or, worse, computerized voting.

I suspect, though it can't be proven or disproven, that the reason a few pols want to change a proven system is so they can make money as consultants to the folks who sell the voting systems.

I have never claimed that our honest election system give us a better quality of pols. Ours are as dishonest, dirty, venal and incompetent as anywhere else in the US.

All I claim is that we come by them in honest and trusted elections.

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:50 pm

How much voter fraud existed in your commenweath before it enacted the first U.S. voter ID law? How much has been prevented since? I'm data driven and don't believe in laws that attempt to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. Small government and all that. Don't you agree?
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:28 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:How much voter fraud existed in your commenweath before it enacted the first U.S. voter ID law? How much has been prevented since? I'm data driven and don't believe in laws that attempt to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. Small government and all that. Don't you agree?


Back in the 20s through the 40's it was pretty bad. In the 50's after we became a commonwealth with our own internal government it we started tightening up the election laws. I don't know when the SEC started issuing ID cards, certainly before the 1976 election when I first got mine. Probably in the 60's maybe even the 50's.

Up through the 1980 election, it was even stricter. To vote you went to your polling place at a school. Depending on where your name was alphabetically, you were assigned a classroom. At 1PM (or whatever the time was) you were locked in and nobody entered or left until everyone in the polling place, all classrooms, had voted.

Virtually no absentee ballots, virtually no early voting.


And yet we still had 60-70% of the over 18 population routinely show up to vote. I think that over 85% of over 18 year olds are registered. Without resorting to scams like motor voter or even much hooraw about registering at all. Overall US is in the 50-60% range.

Now the classrooms are open, you go in, vote and leave. Still virtually no absentee ballots or early voting.


As for fraud, I think the appearance of fraud, or even the perception of a possibility of fraud is almost as bad as fraud itself. Perhaps as bad or worse in some senses.

If people cannot have confidence in free and fair elections there can be no democracy.

Look at all the blather about fraud. Look at all the jokes about fraud ("Vote early and often!", "Wisconsin where even the dead vote" and more)

It is not enough not to have fraud. It is necessary to not even have the whiff of an appearance of fraud.

Wisconsin has a registration process which we have discussed. That is the place to verify that a person is who they say they are. You described ways to do that, we do something similar here. We take it one step further, when you register here, you are given a voter ID card. It is not that hard, the car has no expiration date so only is renewed if I move.

Why can't Wisconsin do this?

If I lived in the upper 50 I doubt that I would even register. You all just don't seem serious about voting and democracy.

As for smaller government, I wonder if a Wisconsin style system would be better? Sure, perhaps a bit less government on the registration voting side, but probably more on the aftervote adjudication side with recounts, charges of fraud, managing absentee ballots and so on. I suspect it is probably a tradeoff.

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:33 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote: At 1PM (or whatever the time was) you were locked in and nobody entered or left until everyone in the polling place, all classrooms, had voted.


I was a bit unclear there. At the appointed time everyone in Puerto Rico was shut into their classroom. I don't remember if we were let out on completion of voting in our polling place or at a specific time but you could count on spending an hour or two in there.

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:22 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:

Look at all the blather about fraud. Look at all the jokes about fraud ("Vote early and often!", "Wisconsin where even the dead vote" and more)

It is not enough not to have fraud. It is necessary to not even have the whiff of an appearance of fraud.

First of all, those phrases are more commonly associated with the city of Chicago, not the state of Wisconsin. Seriously, you can't even get your bullshit right.

Second, there is no 'appearance' of fraud. There are only unsubstantiated statements.

In the recent Pennsylvania case, the state admitted that a) they had no evidence at all of any voter fraud; b) they never even bothered to investigate whether there was any fraud. And the guy who pushed that voter ID bill proudly declared that it was going to help Romney. The state sent out letters telling some college student their student ID was valid for voting. Except, it isn't. ooops.

If there was a valid reason to enforce a voter ID, then at a minimum the state should make sure that all citizens are able to meet the requirements. But the Republicans in PA don't seem particularly concerned whether 750,00+ voters will be able to get a valid ID before the next election.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:45 am

DCB wrote:First of all, those phrases are more commonly associated with the city of Chicago, not the state of Wisconsin. Seriously, you can't even get your bullshit right.


Quite right about the "more commonly" but they are not uncommonly associated with Wisconsin and virtually every state and city. Jokingly, in most cases, but still regularly heard.

DCB wrote:Second, there is no 'appearance' of fraud. There are only unsubstantiated statements.


Yeah like these:

"David Lewis and Ramon Martinez, who were charged with election fraud arising out of the November 4, 2008, Presidential Election, entered guilty pleas Tuesday wherein they admitted they voted illegally"

Or

DOJ Cases:
Frank Walton
Charge: Falsely Procuring Voter Registration (Felony Class I)
Next date: December 6, 2010, for sentencing
Walton was a special registration deputy (“SRD”) who solicited voter registrations while working for the Community Voter Project (“CVP”).

Or

Michael Henderson
Charges: Voting by a Disqualified Person (Felon) (Felony Class I)
Providing False Information to an Election Official (Felony Class I)
Next date: November 19, 2010, for motion decision on defense constitutional challenge
This is a felon voter case. Milwaukee Public Defender is challenging the felon voter prohibition.

(DOJ = Wisconsin Dept of Justice)

And so on. Let me know if you want more.

Things like this are what give the appearance (or perception) of fraud to the average voter. It doesn't take too many cases to damage the perception of lack of integrity in the process. A dozen each cycle would probably be enough.

DCB wrote:If there was a valid reason to enforce a voter ID, then at a minimum the state should make sure that all citizens are able to meet the requirements.


I agree 100%. The state has an obligation to provide an ID card. I see 2 ways this can be done:

If registering as motor voter, then one will have a driver's license so no problem.

If registering in the normal process, the registrar should the registrar issue an ID card at time of registration? (As we do here) They will have all the info necessary.

You could probably even include the card as a tear-off portion of the form filled out for registration. Not terribly secure, even with an official stamp or, better, an embossed seal. Still, it would be way better than what you have now.

Is there a reason this is not done in Wisconsin?

DCB wrote:But the Republicans in PA don't seem particularly concerned whether 750,00+ voters will be able to get a valid ID before the next election.


Perhaps because I am not a republican I too am concerned about this. As strongly as I believe in ID for voting (and I would not even register in a state that didn't require them) I don't think it should be implemented at the last moment.

I think that it needs to be implemented now for the 2014 elections to give people a chance to get id.

We will still probably have the problem as most people will put it off until September 2014 and we will have to listen to the sob stories all over again.

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