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"Somebody else did that"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby peripat » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:02 am

Yet you feel you have a legal right to the highways, to free speech, to criticize the government- none of these are absolutes in the history of humanity. Anything that benefits you personally must qualify as acceptable welfare. Student loans, as has been mentioned earlier, are not welfare to anyone except the financial institutions. Using your logic any money borrowed by any individual (auto loans, mortgages etc) would be welfare. Do you also put business loans in that category?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby DCB » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:05 am

fennel wrote:
rabble wrote:One word: filibuster.
Or, more to the point: Stall.
Stall the economy however we can. Then we'll sweep away the rubble and establish a righteous new dynasty whose minions are seen but not heard.

In the very early days of the Administration they passed the stimulus bill. Among other things, it helped pay for a portion of the University Ave. reconstruction. (last year's portion anyway).

Then the GOP took the House, and have spent the last two years trying kill the ACA ( 31 meaningless votes and counting ). And not much else.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:19 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:If Obamacare was an insurance, it would have been unconstitutional. It is constitutional only because it is a tax. The logic in reaching the conclusion that it is a tax is pretty tortured. But once they reached that conclusion, there is no question that it is constitutional.


This is really a discussion for another thread that's already been beaten to death, but yeah, Robert's used the tax notion to justify the ACA. He might have chosen the Commerce Clause instead, or he might have even just gone with a broad brush and said that the Constitution's provisions for the general welfare includes virtually all things health and security related. As a practical matter, striking down the ACA could have had implications for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. Such a radical decision shouldn't, and wasn't, taken lightly.

Your final sentence here stumps me, though. You agree with whatever the Supreme Court says? Somehow I doubt that.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:48 am

So, let’s clear away the irrelevant government expenditures and list just the ones noted by Obama and Warren:

Department of Defense 18.74%
Department of Transportation 2.05%
Department of Education 1.32%
Department of Homeland Security 1.21%
Department of Justice 0.67%
National Science Foundation 0.20%

TOTAL: 23.4%

http://pjmedia.com/zombie/
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:59 am

Did businesses benefit when in cities across the country HUD built massive housing projects which instantly turned into pre-fab ghettos?

Do businesses benefit when the EPA awards itself unilateral power to impose its interpretation of environmental laws, with no hearings and no warning?

Will businesses benefit when they are forced to abide by byzantine, onerous and expensive Obamacare regulations?

The progressive stance might be: “But we all benefit when everyone is healthy, when global warming is stopped, when children have high self-esteem, when no American goes hungry!”

But by this stage we’ve already passed from measurable physical benefits like roads to fire-fighting to vague claims about intangible potential benefits for which there is no proof. Obama said, “Somebody invested in roads and bridges” because the audience could understand a concrete example; he didn’t get up and say “Somebody invested in high self-esteem” because it would expose the slippery slope underneath this line of reasoning.

Should businesses pay enough taxes to support the nation’s basic physical infrastructure? Yes. Of course. And they already do. But should they pay taxes to fund every progressive social fantasy? That’s open for debate, and that’s not the point Obama and Warren were making. Overtly, at least.

We should thank President Obama for finally revealing the central justification for his economic policy. Now that we see what’s at the heart of his fiscal philosophy, we can demonstrate that he has only ended up proving the opposite of what he intended.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:10 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
peripat wrote:Oh heck- by his definition all infrastructure, all government is 'welfare'.


Nope. Transfer payments to individuals are welfare.

Things like roads, bridges etc that go to everyone and not to specific individuals are hardly welfare.

John Henry
No mention of unnecessary wars costing $4 trillion, or the bank bailouts costing $4.5 trillion, or the staggering loss of jobs costing untold trillions due to deregulation. Isn't it interesting that the people the rich screwed over had to bail them out? Maybe not for you.

You seem more interested in ignoring the deeper problem of wealth redistribution via stealing labor, higher taxes on low income workers, and lower taxes on the top when they already have a system, as proven in every single study there is, that funnels the money to the top. Why not try using a reality based perspective when you address this topic for a change?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:43 pm

Meade wrote:
Did businesses benefit when in cities across the country HUD built massive housing projects which instantly turned into pre-fab ghettos?

Do businesses benefit when the EPA awards itself unilateral power to impose its interpretation of environmental laws, with no hearings and no warning?

Will businesses benefit when they are forced to abide by byzantine, onerous and expensive Obamacare regulations?

For the first two: So, the argument is, "I didn't personally take a quantifiable tangible benefit from EVERY SINGLE PART of the infrastructure! Therefore your argument is refuted!"

For the third: Predict the future, make it bad, then blame the other guy.

Boy. Lookit you and all that there book learnin! The choir's someplace else, preacher.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:09 am

peripat wrote:Yet you feel you have a legal right to the highways, to free speech, to criticize the government- none of these are absolutes in the history of humanity. Anything that benefits you personally must qualify as acceptable welfare.


This note feels basically dishonest to me. I never said we have a legal right to highways nor have I ever said we have a legal right to free speech or to criticize the government. (We do. More than that, we have a constitutional right)

Nor did I say that anything that benefits me personally "must qualify as acceptable welfare"

What I did say was that transfer payments taken from one individual (taxpayer) and given, unearned, to another individual (who may or may not be a tax payer as well) are "welfare". Nobody seems to want to discuss whether I think they are justified or not (some are, some aren't IMHO)

Perhaps next time you could address what I actually said rather than pretending to address stuff I never said. It would feel more honest to me. Perhaps to you as well.

peripat wrote:Student loans, as has been mentioned earlier, are not welfare to anyone except the financial institutions. Using your logic any money borrowed by any individual (auto loans, mortgages etc) would be welfare. Do you also put business loans in that category?


See my previous note on this. Student loans are welfare to the extent that they are below market interest rates, below market qualifications (no collateral, income risk etc) and can be forgiven in some circumstances.

To this extent, they are welfare as I understand the word. Not the principal, assuming it is not forgiven. But the subsidy on the interest rates, qualifications and so on.

If auto loans, mortgages and other financing is subsidized by govt, I would certainly put it in the category of welfare.

Most business loans are not subsidized by govt. Those that are, such as through SBA, I would consider welfare to the extent that they are subsidized. Just like student loans.

John Henry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:54 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote: What I did say was that transfer payments taken from one individual (taxpayer) and given, unearned, to another individual (who may or may not be a tax payer as well) are "welfare". Nobody seems to want to discuss whether I think they are justified or not (some are, some aren't IMHO)

John Henry
I can agree with this. It's not necessarily just transfer of payments though. In the sense that student loans are your focal point, which suggests you possibly see them as a problem or somehow comparable to the trillions redistributed from labor to the top via the system we have re: low wages, long hours, and low benefits, for most workers, then I have to disagree. You're ignoring the major problem of our "welfare-to-the-top" system before the conversation even begins thereby creating a false starting point. There can't be an honest conversation about welfare without discussing the wealth redistribution to the top that created this economy, and hence created a larger number of poor people dependent on traditional forms of welfare.
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