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"Somebody else did that"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby DCB » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:21 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:I see this all the time all over the US. I talk to people most every day who are trying to hire and can't find suitable candidates.

who will work for peanuts.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:26 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:One reason it is screwed up is because teachers do not have the knowledge to teach. We have teachers who can't do math, read or write. We have schools of education that don't care what their graduates know.

Maybe in your Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, but what do you know about the educational standards needed for teaching certification in the State of Wisconsin? I acheived four such licensures. I was very well versed in the subjects I taught.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fennel » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:19 pm

The complaint by employers that they can't hire qualifed workers (because the educational system can't produce them) is a tired and pathetic one. At the most basic level, it may also be correct since public education is a sector in which we haven't been investing for decades. Garbage in, garbage out.

But even at the level of more specialized jobs, employers often bail when it comes to offering the domain-specific training that their business needs – and which is best handled by them.

The public educational system is not a subcontractor to businesses, after all. It serves a broader purpose: to produce intelligent, informed people who have the basic thinking skills to enter any economic sector, whether public, private, or yet-to-be-determined.

Starting up an enterprise requires a certain kind of faith, to be sure, but that faith shouldn't be so self-serving as to believe that a publicy funded educational system should favor a particular model. It's silly to imagine that the public system can foresee and respond to the particular needs of a particular business, even before those needs have been identified.

Anyone is free to travel publicly-funded roadways, after all. But don't expect the rest of us to fund a new road system to prop up your ill-thought business plan to ship latex paint via the arctic circle.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:One reason it is screwed up is because teachers do not have the knowledge to teach. We have teachers who can't do math, read or write. We have schools of education that don't care what their graduates know.

Maybe in your Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, but what do you know about the educational standards needed for teaching certification in the State of Wisconsin? I acheived four such licensures. I was very well versed in the subjects I taught.


I have a MS in education (2003) from a large, well respected US school (Southern New Hampshire University). While getting it, I did several research projects into how teachers get trained. As I said, the wonder is that our (US) schools are not even worse given how we prepare teachers.

In the US, in most states, the emphasis is on teacher training rather than subject matter training. Something like 1/3 of all high school teachers have a degree, major or minor in the subject matter they are supposed to teach. (This is going back to 2002 or so and might have changed with Bush's education initiatives). Most have degrees from schools of education or school departments of education rather than from mainstream history, math, science, language, literature etc departments.

Schools of education, including mine, tend to be notoriously unrigorous. A lot of teachers will claim their programs were rigorous but that is mainly because they lack anything to compare it to.

I have degrees in science (Oceanography) and business as well as education. (Also a number of technical schools in the Navy. About 13 months worth) I can tell you that there was pretty much no rigor in the course of my MS.

I taught in the SNHU school of business from 1982 to present. I was required to give at least 1 exam and encouraged to give 2 each class. In the SNHU school of education, tests, exams, quizzes and the like were discouraged by official policy. I thought this was weird at the time and looked around. It seems common practice at ed schools, at least at the graduate level that I looked at. On the other hand, given the vagueness of most of the subject matter, it would have been hard to come up with any kind of meaningful test.

In the business school, I routinely made my students read complete books and report on them. This was a fairly common practice with my colleagues as well. (Some students did complain that 10 weeks was not enough time to read Atlas Shrugged but they did it). In the Ed school the longest things we read were articles and papers mostly less than 10 pages. How can we expect teachers to be rigorous when they've not been exposed to it themselves?

So what kind of school did you go to and what did you major in?

So how do Wisconsin HS graduates do when they go to college? Do a third of them need to take remedial courses in their freshman years or are they better than the national norm?

That would seem to me to be the test of how well the schools educate their students. And how good a job teachers do.

And can employers find HS graduates that can read and understand, write clearly and do basic math? That too would seem to be a good test of a school system.

It is not a question of pay. Employers are willing to pay good money for people with skills. Even people with basic skills who are trainable. They are hard to find.

John Henry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:06 pm

I don't get it. What exactly are we being told about what the president said? Pry what you want out of context but this "discussion" is bizzare. Hey as a matter of fact did this growth area do it all on there own or is it operating on a playing fields (or roads) we collectively laid out?

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news ... index.html

Anyway if this is true it looks like there is an uptick in demand that should give folks like mitch mcconnell fits over the next few months.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Vinnie P » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:16 am

I don't own the company that pays me the bulk of my income, but I'm an independant contractor, so as far as the IRS is concerned, I own and operate a small business. I am that business. I have the job I have because I have the skill to do the job to the satisfation of my boss and her clients. I have those skills because I spent my whole life working on them. I have two degrees because I busted my ass earning them. I don't owe any student loans because I didn't use them. I paid for my own education. I have some investements and other assets that I bought and paid for with money that I earned. I also served my country as an Officer in the United States Marine Corps.

I built that. I did. No one else made that happen. Sure, I have a great family, and I've had some great mentors and teachers, but no one did the work for me. I did that.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby bdog » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:32 am

The self help guru Wayne Dyer often acknowledges his father's influence being crucial to his development and phenomenal success.

His father was an alcoholic who abandoned his family.

Wayne Dyer grew up not knowing or meeting his father at all. In his early thirties, Dyer was so wrapped up in hatred and bitterness that it was destroying his life. After a long search and guidance which sounds improbable (but is true!), he found the grave of his father.


Wayne Dyer then spent a few hours by the grave shouting, cursing and blaming his father for all the evil things he had done. It all ended in a deep sense of forgiveness. And love. A realization that his father had been the most influential person in his life, a fact that had helped him become the man he then was.

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby TeachInPeace » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:One reason it is screwed up is because teachers do not have the knowledge to teach. We have teachers who can't do math, read or write. We have schools of education that don't care what their graduates know.

Maybe in your Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, but what do you know about the educational standards needed for teaching certification in the State of Wisconsin? I acheived four such licensures. I was very well versed in the subjects I taught.


So how do Wisconsin HS graduates do when they go to college? Do a third of them need to take remedial courses in their freshman years or are they better than the national norm?

That would seem to me to be the test of how well the schools educate their students. And how good a job teachers do.

And can employers find HS graduates that can read and understand, write clearly and do basic math? That too would seem to be a good test of a school system.

It is not a question of pay. Employers are willing to pay good money for people with skills. Even people with basic skills who are trainable. They are hard to find.

John Henry


Depends on where you look. Wisconsin is home to the largest race-based achievement gap in the nation. Something like 75% of the Milwaukee Public Schools graduates who are accepted to 4 year universities need remedial support in at least one subject area. I myself graduated from a small Wisconsin High School and had to take remedial Algebra - twice - and was asked by one English professor "how did you get into college with these writing skills?" Wisconsin has a beautiful track record for white, middle class student success, but not in any other group. Following the policies of the late 80s and 90s that moved most of Milwaukee's manufacturing jobs to Mexico, there are few options for kids who don't gain access to college. It's a charmed cycle, and while teacher preparation is a large piece of that puzzle, true change is going to need a systemic shift. As the President says, no one gets there alone.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:58 am

TeachInPeace wrote:So how do Wisconsin HS graduates do when they go to college? Do a third of them need to take remedial courses in their freshman years or are they better than the national norm?

Wisconsin had one of the highest graduation rates in the country and our SAT/ACT scores have been at or near the top for many years.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:04 am

I got where I am all by my own fuckin self. I built these here roads, I taught myself to read, I fought my own fires, built me a jail, caught thieves and put 'em in there so I wouldn't get robbed walking down the sidewalk I poured, and dammit, nobody did one damn thing to help.

So screw all of you bastards.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby peripat » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:05 am

Since it apparently is so bad in the public school system, why don't employers get together to run their own schools They could hire their own qualified teachers, set their own standards and produce their own highly qualified employees. (Hey aren't all those private charter and parochial schools producing well educated people either?)
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:10 am

No one is denying the importance of individual hard work. The Right wing is denying everything that exists outside of that. Why is it the left has to defend this? Why not make the right defend their steadfast denial of the realities of this country for the past 200 years?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby HawkHead » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:26 am

TeachInPeace wrote:Depends on where you look. Wisconsin is home to the largest race-based achievement gap in the nation. Something like 75% of the Milwaukee Public Schools graduates who are accepted to 4 year universities need remedial support in at least one subject area. I myself graduated from a small Wisconsin High School and had to take remedial Algebra - twice - and was asked by one English professor "how did you get into college with these writing skills?" Wisconsin has a beautiful track record for white, middle class student success, but not in any other group. Following the policies of the late 80s and 90s that moved most of Milwaukee's manufacturing jobs to Mexico, there are few options for kids who don't gain access to college. It's a charmed cycle, and while teacher preparation is a large piece of that puzzle, true change is going to need a systemic shift. As the President says, no one gets there alone.


I went to a Madison high school and graduated with 29 college credits from advanced placement and the fantastic foreign language program. I was well prepared for college at UW-Madison. I was in 3rd semester calc my first semester in college, advanced physics, Chem 103 which was a review of the chem class I took in high school. I couldn't be more proud of my high school and teachers.

I ran into my 6th grade teacher at Capitol Brewery this summer and thanked him profusely for his help and my success.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:37 am

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

-Barack Obama

Vinnie P wrote: Sure, I have a great family, and I've had some great mentors and teachers, but no one did the work for me.


Vinnie P wrote:I also served my country as an Officer in the United States Marine Corps.


Then you learned to work as a team, right?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:41 am

Then you learned to work as a team, right?


And benefited from the GI bill no doubt. You serve, we help pay for college. Did you also create the VA? I'm not saying you don't deserve it, you deserve more. I'm just saying you've benefited from greatly from America's social system and infrastructure. It is really a sad day if you can't see that.
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