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Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby pjbogart » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:53 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:It doesn't change the question, which nobody has answered:

Should men have the absolute right to do what they want with their bodies? Including excision of lumps of tissue for no medical reason other than they want to.


Although I think this is a quasi-strawman argument, I'll take a stab at it. As a libertarian, I would think you appreciate the notion that activities which are generally harmful to yourself but not harmful to others should not be proscribed absent a compelling reason. Your example of bodily mutilation is a good one because the line between what we find distasteful and what we feel is an indication of a depraved mind is blurry.

Generally speaking, bodily mutilation is not a terrible problem in our society because very few people would go beyond purely cosmetic alterations, which you may find distasteful but aren't really harmful to anyone other than the person willingly being mutilated. I'm certain that if you went to a doctor and asked to have your arms removed to make a statement about helplessness in society he would immediately refer you to a psychiatrist. Some mutilations are clearly a sign of mental illness and though I'm not sure exactly how you define that category of mutilations I'm sure it would be something along the lines of "significant, non-cosmetic alterations which tend to hamper your ability to function in society."

For other mutilations which you may find distasteful such as strange piercings or even the removal of an ear, I think if such a practice reached such a popularity that it caused alarm among medical professionals we'd hear about it. For instance, if genital piercings significantly increased the risk of infection or disease, both for the pierced person and sexual partners, we might see a legitimate discussion about limiting such practices.

In summation, consentual bodily mutilation might be prohibited for two reasons. First because the consent is invalid due to mental illness. Second because the behavior carries an unacceptable risk to public health.

Of course, you could ask Alta Charo.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Why dignify such a stupid question with a response, pj?
No lump of tissue or amputated limb from a man will need, at minimum, 16-18 years of care.

Some people will do anything to avoid a real conversation, I guess.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Stu Levitan » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:12 pm

Meade wrote:Mahatma Gandhi's ... positions on ... sex, and marriage come closest to my own.


Does Ann know??

From The Independent:
At the age of 38, in 1906, he took a vow of brahmacharya, which meant living a spiritual life but is normally referred to as chastity, without which such a life is deemed impossible by Hindus.

Gandhi found it easy to embrace poverty. It was chastity that eluded him. So he worked out a series of complex rules which meant he could say he was chaste while still engaging in the most explicit sexual conversation, letters and behaviour.

With the zeal of the convert, within a year of his vow, he told readers of his newspaper Indian Opinion: "It is the duty of every thoughtful Indian not to marry. In case he is helpless in regard to marriage, he should abstain from sexual intercourse with his wife."

Meanwhile, Gandhi was challenging that abstinence in his own way. He set up ashrams in which he began his first "experiments" with sex; boys and girls were to bathe and sleep together, chastely, but were punished for any sexual talk. Men and women were segregated, and Gandhi's advice was that husbands should not be alone with their wives, and, when they felt passion, should take a cold bath.

The rules did not, however, apply to him. Sushila Nayar, the attractive sister of Gandhi's secretary, also his personal physician, attended Gandhi from girlhood. She used to sleep and bathe with Gandhi. When challenged, he explained how he ensured decency was not offended. "While she is bathing I keep my eyes tightly shut," he said, "I do not know ... whether she bathes naked or with her underwear on. I can tell from the sound that she uses soap." The provision of such personal services to Gandhi was a much sought-after sign of his favour and aroused jealousy among the ashram inmates.

As he grew older (and following Kasturba's death) he was to have more women around him and would oblige women to sleep with him whom – according to his segregated ashram rules – were forbidden to sleep with their own husbands. Gandhi would have women in his bed, engaging in his "experiments" which seem to have been, from a reading of his letters, an exercise in strip-tease or other non-contact sexual activity. Much explicit material has been destroyed but tantalising remarks in Gandhi's letters remain such as: "Vina's sleeping with me might be called an accident. All that can be said is that she slept close to me." One might assume, then, that getting into the spirit of the Gandhian experiment meant something more than just sleeping close to him.

It can't, one imagines, can have helped with the "involuntary discharges" which Gandhi complained of experiencing more frequently since his return to India. He had an almost magical belief in the power of semen: "One who conserves his vital fluid acquires unfailing power," he said.

Meanwhile, it seemed that challenging times required greater efforts of spiritual fortitude, and for that, more attractive women were required: Sushila, who in 1947 was 33, was now due to be supplanted in the bed of the 77-year-old Gandhi by a woman almost half her age. While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him. "We both may be killed by the Muslims," he told her, "and must put our purity to the ultimate test, so that we know that we are offering the purest of sacrifices, and we should now both start sleeping naked."

--end text --

Now, will you please answer my question. Thanks.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby bdog » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:41 am

Stu Levitan wrote:
Meade wrote:Mahatma Gandhi's ... positions on ... sex, and marriage come closest to my own.

Does Ann know??

How about Terese? I think she may be interested in Meade's sex position(s). Just sayin.

glass houses
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:06 am

Stu Levitan wrote:From The Independent:

--end text --

TLDR. Thanks.

Stu Levitan wrote:Now, will you please answer my question. Thanks.

Answer your disingenuous question? Why? Just so you can see me meet your expectation of failure?
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:08 am

bdog wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:
Meade wrote:Mahatma Gandhi's ... positions on ... sex, and marriage come closest to my own.

Does Ann know??

How about Terese? I think she may be interested in Meade's sex position(s). Just sayin.

glass houses

Who is Terese? (Maybe I shouldn't ask.)
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby jman111 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:54 am

Meade wrote:Answer your disingenuous question? Why?

Saved for posterity.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:23 am

jman111 wrote:Saved for posterity.

Good idea. And just for safe keeping, how about saving it in your posterior.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Stella_Guru » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:56 pm

If Obama is willing to fuck with Social Security and Medicare at a time when increasing numbers of ppl will depend on these programs as their only means of support, dont be so sure he will have a problem going after abortion rights when his rightwing puppet masters say the word.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby rabble » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:57 pm

I can't think of anyone who is sure what Obama's going to do. About abortion, taxes, health care, or anything.

Just about everybody I know is pretty certain what Romney would do, though.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:04 pm

Stella, since you don't seem to like Obama, who are you going to vote for? I don't see you getting behind the Romney/Ryan ticket and Ralph Nader isn't running this time around.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Stella_Guru » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:09 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Stella, since you don't seem to like Obama, who are you going to vote for? I don't see you getting behind the Romney/Ryan ticket and Ralph Nader isn't running this time around.

Cynical politicians like Obama love the logic of the "lesser of two evils" approach because the message such votes deliver is that they never have to do anything for their base in order to be re-elected. Henry, what is the long term plan to bring genuine change or improvement to the system for those whose lives depend on such changes from those who have advocated the "lesser" approach for decades?
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:21 pm

Gary Johnson

*Don't require insurers to provide birth control. (May 2012)
*No federal funding for stem cell research. (Jan 2012)
*Women's right to choose until fetal viability. (Jun 2011)
*Right to choose up until viability of the fetus. (May 2011)
*Leave the decision up to the woman. (Jan 2001)
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:24 pm

Despite all the rhetoric from the right wing, they proposed ZERO bills to end abortion when they controlled all 3 branches of Government. They absolutely fear doing that (barring full confidence in electronic election theft) because they would be thrown out of all 3 branches of Government as soon as possible, imo.
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Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Meade wrote:Gary Johnson

*Don't require insurers to provide birth control. (May 2012)
*No federal funding for stem cell research. (Jan 2012)
*Women's right to choose until fetal viability. (Jun 2011)
*Right to choose up until viability of the fetus. (May 2011)
*Leave the decision up to the woman. (Jan 2001)

Johnson takes the classic libertarian line on these issues. I doubt if he would require insurers to cover anything.
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