MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Tuesday, September 23, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 49.0° F  Fair
Collapse Photo Bar

Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:24 am

pjbogart wrote:Notice, John, that I specifically laid out a scenario where EVERYONE needs to do basic training even if only career military fights the wars. This gives the military the pick of the litter according to how people performed in basic training.

Notice also that I said a "sizable" number of young men would be better off. I'm under no illusion that every veteran is a model citizen.


First, just to be clear, I agree that a sizable number would benefit from basic training. And that society as a whole would benefit from them having received it. Most of them, anyway.

(So I can assume that you served and have or will encourage your kids to join the military?)

The main question I have is would the military benefit? Basic training is pretty basic and doesn't really qualify anyone for anything other than basic entry level military tasks. So it is not like we would have some reserve forces just waiting to be called up.

The military might benefit from everyone serving 2 years. That would at least be long enough to learn some basic skills. But I am not even certain of that.

Another problem is where do we get the funding to run this? There are about 1.5mm male 18 year olds in the US. About as many, I think, as in all the military at present.

Then there is the issue of involuntary servitude. Do you really want a military of people many of whom do not want to be there?

And why only men? Seems discriminatory on its face. I understand the practical reasons, I just think it is discriminatory.

As many benefits as there may be to people serving in the military, I see far more problems.

The military is not a social welfare program. The military and defense is one of the few legitimate functions of any government. Turning it into a social program as you seem to be saying will destroy its main function.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:33 am

The military is not a social welfare program. The military and defense is one of the few legitimate functions of any government. Turning it into a social program as you seem to be saying will destroy its main function.


Well the military is not but the Defense industry is already there. You want to know how to pay for it? Stop paying for private security and contractors. They cost WAAAAYYYY more than servicemen and women. Stop building weapons to fight enemies that don't exist. there is no greater social welfare program in the US than the Defense industry yet brave deficit hawk Paul Ryan can;t find a nickel of savings there.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7801
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:34 am

Henry Vilas wrote:And, according to Meade, they need white men to tell them what medical decisions they can make with their bodies.

Henry V, you are a liar.
Meade
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:37 am

snoqueen wrote:But I'd have been pleased to work a couple years for my country in something like the forest service, the Army Corps of Engineers (where I'd have been second-generation), or something else technical. I'm pretty useful there.


So why didn't you?

Not to pick on you Snoqueen but this is fairly common. Seems like a lot of the people who are in favor of public service are in favor of it for others but not for themselves.

Are you (did you, will you) encouraging your kids to join the military? Are you (did you, will you) encouraging your kids to perform public service? Peace Corps and Americorps are always looking for volunteers.

If not, why are you trying to make it mandatory for other people's kids?

Sort of like taxes. Lots of people, many of them here on this forum, are in favor of higher taxes. I suspect that many, perhaps all, of them pay the lowest amount of tax that they are legally required to. I have no problem with that.

But if you want national service or higher taxes, you don't need to wait until someone forces you to.

BTW: Re your attitude, many go into the military with bad attitudes and not much athletic ability. That is one of the things that basic and then continuing training fixes. In other words, don't sell yourself short.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:48 am

Meade wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:And, according to Meade, they need white men to tell them what medical decisions they can make with their bodies.

Henry V, you are a liar.

So you are against laws/constitutional amendments that restrict a woman's choice to control her own body? You have ignored me when I asked such questions of you in the past. Please clearly state your views on abortion and the law.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19893
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:50 am

wack wack wrote:
Also, drawing the line for legal abortion at "first breath" would have the advantage of efficiency for late-term abortionists by giving complete birth to the nonhuman unperson and then quickly cutting off its head before it can take a breath. Neat and clean.


This may be a bit off topic here but one of the problems with comparing infant mortality between countries is defining a "live birth".

In the US, it is pretty bright line and is the "first breath" you mention. This is so no matter how premature, sickly, deformed or low weight the baby is. Even if the baby doesn't draw too many breaths after the first one, it is still considered a live birth.

In other countries, France and Germany are 2 I recall, it is only a live birth if the baby lives long enough to be registered demographically. This is normally after the baby leaves the hospital.

In Russia, babies below a certain weight are not considered live births until they have lived long enough to achieve that weight.

In Japan, babies that die in the first day or two are counted as stillborn or miscarriages. This is mostly for cultural reasons.

Other countries have other quirks.

Princeton ethicist Peter Singer has argued, for a number of years and in all seriousness as far as I can tell, that post birth abortion (my term, he has a fancier name for the squeamish) is ethical. So there is that, too.

Partial birth abortion gets within seconds of and occasionally passes over the line of first breath.

I think that first breath, while it seems clear at first glance, can be a bit murky.


John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:55 am

Henry Vilas wrote:So you are against laws/constitutional amendments that restrict a woman's choice to control her own body?


Why do we stop at women?

Henry, do you support men's rights to do as they wish with their own bodies?

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:55 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:This may be a bit off topic here...

Nothing new for you.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19893
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:56 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:So you are against laws/constitutional amendments that restrict a woman's choice to control her own body?


Why do we stop at women?

Henry, do you support men's rights to do as they wish with their own bodies?

Ask me that again when men can get pregnant. And don't be such a fool.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19893
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:06 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Ask me that again when men can get pregnant. And don't be such a fool.


What does the question have to do with pregnancy?

Answer the question:

My body, I should be able to do anything at all I want with it, no?

If I want to cut off my foot to experience the "thrill" of an amputation, my body, my right, no?

If I want to cut out a chunk of my thigh so I can eat it to see what human flesh tastes like, my right, no?

Both are just tissue, no? My choice what I want to do with it.

Yes, there are people who do both of these things.

More commonly, if I want to inject PCB or smoke crack do I not have a right to my own body?

Or if I want to treat my cancer with Laetrile or any other substance that the govt has not approved, my body, my right, no?

So answer my question. Do you support a man's right to do with their body whatever they want? "Control their own body as you say"

I do. That is not to say that I think the above examples are wise, but they are (or should be) an individual's right.

Caveats for the pedantic: Applies only to competent, consenting adults etc, etc.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby wack wack » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:06 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
I think that first breath, while it seems clear at first glance, can be a bit murky.


John Henry


Perhaps, but it's still much clearer and more reasonable than "the moment of conception," or anything in between.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:10 am

wack wack wrote:Perhaps, but it's still much clearer and more reasonable than "the moment of conception," or anything in between.


Of course. I was merely pointing out that it is not the panacea that it may seem at first glance.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:33 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Seems like a lot of the people who are in favor of public service are in favor of it for others but not for themselves.

And it seems like this argument serves only to try to discredit otherwise legitimate suggestions for improvement. I served- I enlisted 5 days after my 17th birthday. (Had to get permission from the folks to do it.) Based on my experience, I think public service would benefit most, but not all, young adults. For that reason, I'm torn on mandatory public service. We could certainly do better incentivizing some forms of public service, though, to help redirect funds to our youth (an investment in our future) instead of some of the contractors to whom fisti refers.
This is where the "big government" arguments clearly fail, in my opinion. People will loudly object to money spent on governmental agencies, but seem completely ignorant of the funding of these functions via contractors. It defies logic.

johnfajardohenry wrote:Sort of like taxes. Lots of people, many of them here on this forum, are in favor of higher taxes. I suspect that many, perhaps all, of them pay the lowest amount of tax that they are legally required to. I have no problem with that.

But if you want national service or higher taxes, you don't need to wait until someone forces you to.

Oh, this tired argument again?
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3000
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Stu Levitan » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:02 pm

Question for those who believe life begins at conception:

As I know you know, identical twins are the result of a single fertilized egg dividing into two separate embryos. If life had already begun at the time of conception, and the soul created at that time, do the identical twins share the same soul? Do they each have half a soul?

One fertilized egg. Two embryos. How many souls, and when were they created?

I really don't believe you can answer this question. But I'd like to see you try.
Stu Levitan
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:40 pm
Location: Studio B of the historic Abernathy Building

Re: Question for supporters of constitutional abortion ban

Postby Meade » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:21 pm

How do you define soul? If a fertilized ovum is not a living organism, is it dead?
Meade
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar