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Ryan (not) Lyin

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Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:42 am

Generic Foron Liberal wrote:He's been nominee for only a week and already Ryan is caught in at least two lies...or is it more? It's hard to keep track of them all:
Generic Liberal Wordpress Blog wrote:http://thelastofthemillenniums.wordpres ... ok-office/
‘Ryan criticizes Obama on ’08 GM plant closure from before he took office’


But...

Reason.com (Libertarian magazine) wrote:But, as it turns out, the plant wasn’t closed when Obama gave his speech on Feb 13, 2008. It was open. The liberals are challenging Ryan based on an Aug 16 story by David Shepardson, The Detroit News’ auto reporter that said “the plant halted production in December 2008, when President George W. Bush was in office.” But, as best as I can tell, Shepardson got it wrong. The decision to close the plant was made under Bush. However, the plant was not slated to close till the summer of 2009 – nearly a year and a half after Obama spoke and six months after he assumed office.

Here’s what GazetteXtra.com, a Janesville paper, reported on Feb 2, 2009:

Full-size sport utility vehicle production has ended at the local General Motors plant, but medium-duty truck production is continuing—not starting—in Janesville.

And it likely will continue into May, when the lights finally go off in the facility that has been producing vehicles since 1923.

When GM officials announced last June that SUV production would cease in Janesville, they also said that medium-duty truck production would conclude by the end of 2009, or sooner if market conditions dictate.

What’s more, the administration actually did consider keeping the Janesville plant alive after it nationalized GM by commandeering the bankruptcy process

http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/30/ryans ... t-checkers

I take no small satisfaction in noticing that 2012, if nothing else, is becoming the year where the word "factchecker" lost it's (pretension of) luster.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:47 am

Image
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby minicat » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:48 am

Of course, the important fact that's usually being ignored in all this inconsequential back and forth about Obama is that Ryan at the time was (a) the U.S. Rep for Janesville and (b) didn't do jack shit to help the plant stay open.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:51 am

Jim Leute, Janesville Gazette (Monday, Feb. 2, 2009) wrote:JANESVILLE — The concerned relative had it partly right.

"Too bad about the GM thing, but I hear the Janesville plant is getting a new medium-duty truck," the relative told a salaried employee of the auto plant in Janesville at a holiday gathering.

Full-size sport utility vehicle production has ended at the local General Motors plant, but medium-duty truck production is continuing—not starting—in Janesville.

And it likely will continue into May, when the lights finally go off in the facility that has been producing vehicles since 1923.

When GM officials announced last June that SUV production would cease in Janesville, they also said that medium-duty truck production would conclude by the end of 2009, or sooner if market conditions dictate.

Orphaned by the loss of its big brother in December, the Isuzu line and its 50 or so hourly and salaried employees continue to build about 25 trucks four days a week in what has become a nearly empty plant.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/02 ... uty-truck/
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby rabble » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:36 pm

So, here we are. Carefully picking through all the lies, finding details that can somehow be debated and using those to imply that the rest of the lies can be defended as well.

Great way to open a campaign. Lemme know how that works out.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:40 pm

minicat wrote:Of course, the important fact that's usually being ignored in all this inconsequential back and forth about Obama is that Ryan at the time was (a) the U.S. Rep for Janesville and (b) didn't do jack shit to help the plant stay open.

That's not exactly true. When the GM rescue bill came, Ryan actively participated. He voted. Against it.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:53 pm

DCB wrote:That's not exactly true. When the GM rescue bill came, Ryan actively participated. He voted. Against it.
He made the right choice on that vote, then. Wrong choice by using the plant as a political football though.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Crockett » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:08 pm

[/quote]
ArturoBandini wrote:
DCB wrote:That's not exactly true. When the GM rescue bill came, Ryan actively participated. He voted. Against it.
He made the right choice on that vote, then. Wrong choice by using the plant as a political football though.


How bizarre to for a Republican to chastise Obama for not bailing out a union factory. The GOP is a mess.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:22 pm

Crockett wrote:How bizarre to for a Republican to chastise Obama for not bailing out a union factory. The GOP is a mess.
It doesn't matter whether it was a union factory or not. No bailouts.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Crockett » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:51 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Crockett wrote:How bizarre to for a Republican to chastise Obama for not bailing out a union factory. The GOP is a mess.
It doesn't matter whether it was a union factory or not. No bailouts.


Agreed. But it gives the insanity a little more juice that it was one.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:34 pm

Wait a minute. Someone is still lying and someone is telling the truth. If you run a search on Janesville GM plant closing you find a group of articles, half claiming that it was slated for closure in June 2008 and basically shut down by December, save for a few line employees filling what was presumably a contractual obligation to ISUZU. Plant completely shuttered by April 2009.

But another group of articles, like the one Bludgeon posted, seems to transpose all those dates to one year later.

So which is it? When was the plant scheduled for closure? June 2008 or June 2009? When did they essentially cease production, save the few employees working on the ISUZUs? April 2009 or December 2009? It seems like someone's doubling down on a big lie and there must be a verifiable timeline which shows who.

Wikipedia, obviously because it's user edited, hardly seems the best source, but here's their page.

Janesville GM Assembly Plant
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:43 pm

A clearer view:

There were two auto companies producing vehicles out of the same Janesville plant (Gm/Isuzu), sharing the cost of producing vehicles in a small town. One is unionized, the other is not. One is bankrupt, the other is not. One is bailed out, the other is not. One lays off everyone who works there because it can't afford to exist; the other lays off everyone who works there over because it's unionized partner can't afford to exist and pay its half of the bills.

But which employees have jobs longer? Isuzu. Unionized labor is so clumsy and inefficient that it has to piggyback off a right to work company just to be able to make cars outside of Detroit; but not even that or a pension rescue by the president in the name of everyone in the country can keep its doors open. In a crucial way, those GM employees had their Isuzu counterparts to thank for the jobs they had anyway.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:50 pm

Ok, I got it now. Bludgeon is a propaganda tool for the right, passing brazen lies as facts on TDPF. Conservatives are attempting to say that GM kept the Janesville plant on "standby" until June of 2009, meaning that while it was not employing anyone other than whatever handful of maintenance staff might be necessary, it was essentially closed under the timeline Democrats are using. Slated for closure in June 2008, almost all production halted in December 2008, completely closed down after the ISUZU contract was finished in April 2009. Left on standby for possible contract that ultimately went to a Michigan facility.

Even the conservative sites seem to want to dance around the dates, but when you read between the lines you can clearly identify the lie.

Obama lied about Janesville GM auto plant, not Ryan

Janesville GM Plant Closed in 2009 – After Obama Promised to Save It

Here's Janesville's unemployment rate on a graph:

Image

Huh, that sure looks like a plant closure in December 2008, doesn't it?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:51 pm

That's one way to look at it. The other is that GM was producing cars that people didn't want to buy (those car models were produced by executive decisions, not union dictated) and Isuzi produced vehicles that the market found desirable.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:00 pm

Crockett wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:
Crockett wrote:How bizarre to for a Republican to chastise Obama for not bailing out a union factory. The GOP is a mess.
It doesn't matter whether it was a union factory or not. No bailouts.


Agreed. But it gives the insanity a little more juice that it was one.

I don't agree; but that's not really the issue. The issue is whether Ryan was being honest.

Ryan could have said, "I disagree with Obama, I don't think the gov't should bail out companies. So its fine by me that this GM plant failed. In fact, I voted against the bailout of GM."

But that's not what he said. Ryan was implying (I would argue) that Obama was promising to keep the shop open, and further that he should have followed through on his promise to keep the Janesville plant open.

Which is problematic, because that seems to contradict his opposition to gov't intervention. Also because the plant was scheduled for closing before Obama was elected, and mostly closed before he took office.

It would be interesting and useful to have a discussion about the pros and cons of gov't intervention. But first we have to get our elected officials to join the reality-based community.
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