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Ryan (not) Lyin

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby snoqueen » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:55 am

Please describe a decision Obama could have made that would have kept Isuzu workers employed longer at Janesville.

Come on, how could he have done that? Isuzu is a foreign company, to start with, so their decisions are not under his control.

If you think he blew it, you've got to show what decision he messed up.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Detritus » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:06 pm

snoqueen wrote:Please describe a decision Obama could have made that would have kept Isuzu workers employed longer at Janesville.

Come on, how could he have done that? Isuzu is a foreign company, to start with, so their decisions are not under his control.

If you think he blew it, you've got to show what decision he messed up.

While you're at it, provide the same explanation for Ryan, and also explain how he has made the situation better in the subsequent four years.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby ArturoBandini » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:42 pm

snoqueen wrote:Come on, how could he have done that? Isuzu is a foreign company, to start with, so their decisions are not under his control.
Huh? Companies that operate in the U.S. are still subject to U.S. and state laws.

And what if Isuzu were U.S.-based company? Would Obama or anyone else in government then have control over their decisions?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:11 pm

snoqueen wrote:Please describe a decision Obama could have made that would have kept Isuzu workers employed longer at Janesville.

Come on, how could he have done that? Isuzu is a foreign company, to start with, so their decisions are not under his control.

If you think he blew it, you've got to show what decision he messed up.

I really don't think "he blew it." But he said it, and these were the circumstances surrounding that proclamation.

Recent (D) MI Governor Jennifer Granholm rebutted, "Obama was too late to save Janesville." With Michigan swinging toward Romney, she's become one of their more important and more skilled surrogates.

Her comments highlight just how successful the GOP convention was. Every president starts his own legend by eventually becoming his own parody; Obama's signature characteristic is extreme grandiosity. And that little man behind the curtain has just been exposed.

Speaking about himself he says in front of Greek columns, "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal..." What was he running for - Jesus?

So when Granhom comes out with an op-ed asserting, "Obama was too late to save Janesville"... They're gradually building up this series of grandiose psuedo religious imagery that makes him look like a fool. What was he going to "Save Janesville" from? Passover? How was he going to do it? The sacred script of his heavenly hand?

Plus, people think of those Greek columns. Then, they think of Greece. "Obama; Greece; Greece; Bailouts; Bailouts; GM; pensions; out of control entitlement system; Medicare; Bankrupt; Inflation; Insolvency; Obama... Greece." It doesn't help that his staff create so many photoshop images with him appearing to almost have a halo, and the stray Democrat who just can't resist to put Obama's face on the flag in front of a Veteran's museum. I don't have to tell you what that reminds people of.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Detritus » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Speaking about himself he says in front of Greek columns, "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal..."

You are so right. It's a crying shame that he didn't start the whole sentence by including other people--you know, by saying something like:
Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that...

That would have been so much more of a statement of vision, rather than crass, megalomaniacal self-congratulation.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Bludgeon, could you please post the direct quote from Obama when he promised to keep the Janesville plant open for another 100 years?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:43 pm

pjbogart wrote:Bludgeon, could you please post the direct quote from Obama when he promised to keep the Janesville plant open for another 100 years?


He said "I want it to thrive" and "and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President." Not to split hairs, but I would call that a pledge not a promise.

The entire transcript is here.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby snoqueen » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Please describe a decision Obama could have made that would have kept Isuzu workers employed longer at Janesville....

If you think he blew it, you've got to show what decision he messed up.

I really don't think "he blew it." But he said it, and these were the circumstances surrounding that proclamation.

Recent (D) MI Governor Jennifer Granholm rebutted, "Obama was too late to save Janesville."


I think given the facts of the matter, she's right. Perhaps by quoting her, you're signaling you agree.

Her comments highlight just how successful the GOP convention was. Every president starts his own legend by eventually becoming his own parody; Obama's signature characteristic is extreme grandiosity. And that little man behind the curtain has just been exposed...

Plus, people think of those Greek columns. Then, they think of Greece. "Obama; Greece; Greece; Bailouts; Bailouts; GM; pensions; out of control entitlement system; Medicare; Bankrupt; Inflation; Insolvency; Obama... Greece."


So it's not that Obama did anything wrong regarding Janesville. You just don't like him. Big deal. I don't like Paul Ryan, and I think Romney is a fake.

Not liking Obama is fine, but don't try to dress it up as some kind of identifiable policy error he made.

Incidentally, I think the stretch from Greek columns to Greece-and-the-Euro to something negative about Obama is a major stretch. The average person doesn't know Greek from Romanesque when it comes to architecture, and pays almost no attention to international events unless they involve American troops. And the White House has the same columns in the front -- they've been there for years. Does that mean any time you look at the White House you think "Obama; Greece; Greece; Bailouts; Bailouts; GM; pensions; out of control entitlement system; Medicare; Bankrupt; Inflation; Insolvency; Obama... Greece"?

I don't believe it.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:55 pm

Sandi, I'm not sure how you turn "I want it to thrive" into a promise or a pledge, but more importantly, quoting a few words rather than a full sentence or even a paragraph is exactly how we end up being propagandized. It's how we get Mitt Romney saying "I'm not worried about poor people" rather than looking at that snippet in context where he was saying that we have a lot of safety nets to help the poor but very few to help struggling middle class families.

President Obama never promised that the Janesville plant would stay open for 100 years. He didn't. You can stand on your head, quote him out of context, insist on reading between the lines, etc and you'll still be a liar if you claim that Obama promised that the Janesville plant would stay open for 100 years. He didn't promise it and he didn't pledge it either (talk about splitting hairs).

Obama said, "And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years." Obama fought hard for the bailout of GM and took a lot of criticism for doing so. Mitt Romney publicly chided the President and said that GM should be forced into bankruptcy. Paul Ryan voted against the bailout, even though the GM plant was currently idle and the bailout provided at least an opportunity to reopen it. As it turned out, a Michigan plant was chosen instead of Janesville for reopening but neither would have reopened without the President's efforts. And let's remember, the people of Flint are just as much the responsibility of Obama as the people of Janesville. If you want to criticize someone for not doing enough, talk to Paul Ryan. He does owe more to Janesville than Flint.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:07 pm

pjbogart wrote:Sandi, I'm not sure how you turn "I want it to thrive" into a promise or a pledge, but more importantly, quoting a few words rather than a full sentence or even a paragraph is exactly how we end up being propagandized.


Well I grabbed the word pledge pretty quickly, and maybe was the wrong one. What I gathered from Obama's words was that he would do his best to help GM. Which he did, and what I meant with the poor word "pledge."

The only reason for the few words was reference to help locate them in the speech in full at Janesville, which I linked.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Ok, so regardless of how you feel about Obama, the entire "Obama lied when he promised to keep the Janesville GM plant open for 100 years" is really much ado about nothing, right? Obama never made that promise. Obama did what he could for GM. The Janesville plant closed anyway.

Right?

I guess I'd like to see that when we argue politics we're arguing something rational rather than just bickering over which camp has better propaganda.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:36 am

snoqueen wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I really don't think "he blew it." But he said it, and these were the circumstances surrounding that proclamation.

Recent (D) MI Governor Jennifer Granholm rebutted, "Obama was too late to save Janesville."


I think given the facts of the matter, she's right. Perhaps by quoting her, you're signaling you agree.

Her comments highlight just how successful the GOP convention was. Every president starts his own legend by eventually becoming his own parody; Obama's signature characteristic is extreme grandiosity. And that little man behind the curtain has just been exposed...

Plus, people think of those Greek columns. Then, they think of Greece. "Obama; Greece; Greece; Bailouts; Bailouts; GM; pensions; out of control entitlement system; Medicare; Bankrupt; Inflation; Insolvency; Obama... Greece."


Incidentally, I think the stretch from Greek columns to Greece-and-the-Euro to something negative about Obama is a major stretch. The average person doesn't know Greek from Romanesque when it comes to architecture, and pays almost no attention to international events unless they involve American troops. And the White House has the same columns in the front -- they've been there for years. Does that mean any time you look at the White House you think "Obama; Greece; Greece; Bailouts; Bailouts; GM; pensions; out of control entitlement system; Medicare; Bankrupt; Inflation; Insolvency; Obama... Greece"?

I don't believe it.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Snowqueen.

No, I don't agree with Granholm. She's an effective surrogate but as such like Debbie Shultz, only a mouthpiece for the campaign, like Priebus and Tim Pawlenty for Romney. I quoted her not to disagree but to illustrate the messianistic posture that permeates the Obama campaign. Ryan's remark was effective because it demonstrates the absurdity of the Obama figure being sold.

Like Arturo, I agree that "Would Obama or anyone else in government then have control over their decisions?" - No. To an extent. Government does have a large (negative) influence on the economic climate that business operates in; taxes and regulations have by far the largest impact on that business's operations cost, in which sense neither Doyle nor Obama were the ideal executives to have in office for the employees and the management of the Janesville plant. But, "Too Late to Save...?" That's a grandiose portrayal. How would he save it?

Like I've been trying to tell PJ, the whole topic of this Janesville GM plant is a lose lose for the Obama campaign. In the end he said what he said and we can try to strip the meaning from his particular words, but every time we do we're left with the question: "Well what did he mean then? Did he mean absolutely nothing at all? Surely he meant something."

Sandi wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Bludgeon, could you please post the direct quote from Obama when he promised to keep the Janesville plant open for another 100 years?


He said "I want it to thrive" and "and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President." Not to split hairs, but I would call that a pledge not a promise.

The entire transcript is here.

PJ, how far up or down do we have to read around the words "this plant will be open for another hundred years," before it doesn't sound like an unforced political error? I mean if we just skip to the first or last sentences we can pretend he was talking about something else altogether. The Obama campaign wants to strip the speech of all its meaning or bifurcate the context to entail a whole new meaning. If you are so inclined to join that fool's expedition, please do. But try to remember that its an endeavor they wouldn't be engaged in at all if they didn't dislike the connotations of its natural context.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:22 am

Bludgeon wrote:The Obama campaign wants to strip the speech of all its meaning or bifurcate the context to entail a whole new meaning. If you are so inclined to join that fool's expedition, please do.


Wow. The irony in that statement would be hilarious if you weren't so serious about it. I guess the lesson learned is, "don't argue with Bludgeon because he's a liar, and when caught in a lie he'll simply continue repeating it as though it were true."

If your goal here is to spread propaganda, you show a real lack of respect for TDPF readers and the American public. You've done an excellent job of convincing yourself, but you're probably more of an asset to Obama than Romney.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:43 am

pjbogart wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:The Obama campaign wants to strip the speech of all its meaning or bifurcate the context to entail a whole new meaning. If you are so inclined to join that fool's expedition, please do.


Wow. The irony in that statement would be hilarious if you weren't so serious about it. I guess the lesson learned is, "don't argue with Bludgeon because he's a liar, and when caught in a lie he'll simply continue repeating it as though it were true."

If your goal here is to spread propaganda, you show a real lack of respect for TDPF readers and the American public. You've done an excellent job of convincing yourself, but you're probably more of an asset to Obama than Romney.


I believe you are not understanding. He doesn't get to not mean that the plant is going to stay open just because you would prefer he meant something else. The premise of any campaign speech is to say, "elect me and good things will happen." In this case, he was talking to the people who worked in the factory. It was open when he went there, it closed down while he was president. I really hate quoting this fucker but for you .... fine.

copy/pasted from your own quote wrote:"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."


For him to mean something else you would have to suppose that by "if our government is there to support you and give you asistance," - - - that he was not talking about what he would do, in the government, to give them assistance. I mean it's as plain as could possibly be.

Presumably "that future", that he'll fight for as president, is the future where the government is there to give them the support they need... ugh I mean how many times do I have to repeat the same sentence. You'd have to do backstands to pretend he meant something other than what he said.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:38 am

Bludgeon wrote:I really hate quoting this fucker but for you .... fine.

copy/pasted from your own quote wrote:"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."


For him to mean something else you would have to suppose that by "if our government is there to support you and give you asistance," - - - that he was not talking about what he would do, in the government, to give them assistance. I mean it's as plain as could possibly be.


First of all, Bludgeon, that's not my quote. I didn't say that. The President of the United States of America said that while he was still a candidate. He's a Democrat and an African American. You seem to hate him so much that you have to be pulled kicking and screaming just to accurately quote him. Calling him a "fucker" doesn't make him look bad, it makes you look bad.

Secondly, Barack Hussein Obama, President of the United States of America, your President, is not the "the government." He is the President, head of the executive branch. He can not write laws or bail out companies. He did what he could for GM despite valiant efforts by Republicans to stop him. The government did not give GM the assistance it needed to re-tool the Janesville plant and keep it open another 100 years, it simply gave GM enough assistance to avoid bankruptcy. GM, not the President, decided to close the Janesville plant, and they made that decision before Barack Hussein Obama, President of the United States, your President, was even nominated by the Democratic Party to be a Presidential candidate.

Those are facts. What you're offering is a mish-mash of propaganda and mental gymnastics attempting to blame the President for something wholly outside of his control. The President wasn't even sworn in when the last GM vehicle came off the assembly line on December 23rd, 2008. He couldn't very well prevent the closing of a factory that was already closed.

I don't think you like facts much, Bludgeon.
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