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Ryan (not) Lyin

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:07 am

pjbogart wrote:Image


Your problem in logic is that you yearn for a context that does not apply to the question. Don't tell me what he can or cannot do - tell him. I didn't go to Janesville and promise to keep the factory open for a hundred years - he did.

The factory was open while he was president, the factory shut down while he was president - - as reported by the Janesville Gazette in February 2002. Open is open. If they're producing vehicles, they're working. Are you trying to say it was closed and open at the same time? Because that's ridiculous. Either way you have lost this argument. Just because the last GM vehicle came off the assembly line in December doesn't mean Isuzu wasn't producing vehicles in the same factory 8 months later.

The question is: did he go to Janesville and say "with... assistance, support... this factory will be open for another hundred years..." Yes.

You are saying that because the closing of a factory is beyond his control, therefore he didn't mean it would stay open when he said it would stay open.

I'm saying it was a stupid thing for him to say in the first place.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bland » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:23 am

Bludgeon wrote: Either way you have lost this argument.

That's our Bludgeon, making shit up again!
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby rabble » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:15 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I didn't go to Janesville and promise to keep the factory open for a hundred years - he did.

Neither of you made that promise.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:02 pm

rabble wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I didn't go to Janesville and promise to keep the factory open for a hundred years - he did.

Neither of you made that promise.


"Oceania has not promised to keep the factory open. Oceania has never promised to keep the factory open."

--G. Orwell.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby fennel » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:17 pm

So, after all this, it seems no less clear that Paul Ryan was lying.
He didn't misspeak (which would imply he was reading a script). He just plain lied.

He admitted misspeaking about his marathon time, but that seems beyond ridiculous. It's just that he got caught – again.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:29 pm

fennel wrote:So, after all this, it seems no less clear that Paul Ryan was lying.
He didn't misspeak (which would imply he was reading a script). He just plain lied.


Okay, so enlighten me. What, to the liberal mind, is the "lie"? That Obama said the factory would be open for a hundred years? What is it you Oceanians have convinced yourselves of here?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:54 pm

Bludgeon. Last comment, really. It's ironic that in order to prove the President is a liar you are repeating the same lie over and over and over. No matter how many times people point out that Obama didn't promise anything, you come back with "well then why did he promise it?"

The liar is Bludgeon. And there's no point in arguing with a liar.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:02 pm

Oh, one last post. I had previously stated that Paul Ryan voted against the GM bailout. I'm not sure where I heard that, but I should have checked before I repeated it because it turns out that he did, in fact, support the auto bailout.

So I won't repeat over and over and over that Paul Ryan voted against the auto bailout, which would be a lie.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:05 pm

PJ "Pocahontas Warren" Bogart wrote:Bludgeon. Last comment, really. It's ironic that in order to prove the President is a liar you are repeating the same lie over and over and over. No matter how many times people point out that Obama didn't promise anything, you come back with "well then why did he promise it?"

The liar is Bludgeon. And there's no point in arguing with a liar.


Again, you seem to have made up your mind all by yourself, on the basis of what I feel is not readily apparent nor agreed upon.

So now we're bickering over whether he said or promised? Pledged, said or promised? Is this what it boils down to in your opinion?

Transcript for transcript:

Vice President Paul Ryan wrote:President Barack Obama came to office during an economic crisis, as he has reminded us a time or two. Those were very tough days, and any fair measure of his record has to take that into account. My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.

A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: "I believe that if our government is there to support you. this plant will be here for another hundred years." That's what he said in 2008.

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that's how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight.


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/29/2 ... rylink=cpy

What lie?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:40 pm

Bludgeon wrote:What lie?

In August Ryan claimed that Obama 'promised' to keep the plant open. Which is a false. He got called out on it.

Ryan is pretty slick. He's not going to let a few facts get in the way of a good story. So, for his convention speech, he changed the wording.

Maybe not technically a lie. But the deception is clear. He's still implying that Obama failed to follow through on a promise, which he never made, to keep the plant open, when it was already closed.

You can keep quibbling that it was still 'open' when Obama took office, but 90% of the workforce was gone, and it only had a small order to fill before the rest were let go, just a few months later.

Ryan's lack of honesty has gotten a lot of deserved attention. But its perfectly consistent with the modern GOP. The entire theme of the RNC convention was based on a lie.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:16 pm

DCB wrote:You can keep quibbling that it was still 'open' when Obama took office, but 90% of the workforce was gone, and it only had a small order to fill before the rest were let go, just a few months later.


Or you can just take Paul Ryan's word for it. Ryan claims that Obama promised to keep the plant open in February of 2008 and it was closed less than a year later. He must have been referring to the December closing, because April comes after February on all of my calendars.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Emil Blatz » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:47 pm

I am from Wisconsin and I followed the GM bankruptcy and the GM Janesville shut down very closely as it played out in 2008 and 2009. Obama, as a candidate in the Democratic Party presidential primary, campaigned in Janesville with what would be widely accepted as an implied promise to keep the plant open. It was a very old facility (operated at that location for nearly 100 years) but had been repeatedly modernized and was, up until 2007 and the economic collapse, one of the most profitable operations in the entire network of GM plants, primarily because it produced the Chevrolet Suburban and Cadillac Escalade models.

I worked my way through law school in a research position with the central Wisconsin investor-owned utility that provided power to the Janesville GM plant. It was the #1 consumer of electricity in that utility's service area at the time, so the utility was constantly being pressured to provide concessions or modify rate structures to help that plant. Every political figure in Wisconsin was extremely attentive and protective of that plant. While it was old and inefficient from the standpoint of the assembly process, it was still extremely profitable because the vehicles made there had the highest gross margins of anything GM made (something like $15K/vehicle.) That changed dramatically after the post-9/11 light truck tax credits expired and as the economy deteriorated in the 2nd half of 2006. When Obama campaigned there in February of 2008 it was clear that the plant's future was in doubt. He was throwing red meat to the UAW in the audience when he indicated that he would help to keep it open.

The CEO's of the big 3 automakers made their famous trek to Washington in September of 2008, in the middle of the presidential campaign, and shortly after the meltdown of Lehman Brothers. Their implicit threat was that at least GM and Chrysler would have to file Chapter 11 by the end of 2008 if they did not get some assistance.

The terrible mistake was indeed made was made by the Bush Administration, when it released $17.8B in TARP funds to GM and Chrysler in mid-December of 2008, to prevent Chapter 11 filings which would otherwise have happened on 12/31/2008. President Bush released a statement at the time the funds were disbursed declaring that he didn't want the incoming President to take office with 2 bankrupt automakers on his plate at inauguration.

What Bush should have done was insist that they file Chapter 11 first, then advance the $17.8B to help them during reorganization (as DIP financing.) What he did by kicking the decision into the next year and the next administration was to give the Obama administration the ability to bend the bankruptcy process to favor the UAW and disadvantage the white collar workers, white collar retirees, and dealers at GM and Chrysler.

Anyone with knowledge of bankruptcy law would admit that the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies were extreme examples of political interference and manipulation. If Obama had wanted to maintain the GM plant at Janesville, he could have done that, among the many things that were buried in the bankruptcy deal.

But he didn't, and the plant is closed and there is tremendous bitterness in the Janesville area about it. The economic downturn that hit the entire country was very pronounced in Rock County and the surrounding area, because the wage levels of the GM jobs lost were at the top of the scale.

Paul Ryan's reference to this matter was factually correct. Look at this brief article from the Wisconsin State Journal (available on the newspaper’s website Madison.com, underlining mine):


GM-JANESVILLE ENDS PRODUCTION

April 24, 2009 12:00 am • Associated Press

The last vehicle has rolled off the line at the Janesville General Motors plant, the oldest in the GM family.

Production of GM vehicles ended just before Christmas, cutting 1,200 jobs. But the plant remained open as about 110 employees finished an order of trucks for Isuzu Motors.

That order was completed Thursday morning. GM spokesman Christopher Lee said about 50 workers have been laid off, while the rest will remain to help guide the plant's shutdown.

It's not immediately clear what will become of the plant. GM could demolish the building and sell the land, or collaborate on developing businesses or parks.

The plant was built in 1918. It was made for tractor production and converted to a Chevrolet plant five years later.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/business/gm-janesville-ends-production/article_7d5e3f97-7fd4-5d60-93d3-206c88990a5c.html#ixzz25Kb4dN5n




Now that newspaper is running commentary suggesting that Ryan lied and that the plant was “closed” when the 1,200 employees were laid off in December, 2008. But they have not issued a correction, a retraction or listed this piece (above) in an errata column.

I would point out that while the GM bankruptcy petition was filed on June 1st, 2009, the pre-petition bankruptcy planning was going on for probably 6 or 7 months prior to the petition date. The Obama administration was intimately involved in that process. It's not a crime that they did not favor the Janesville plant in the prepackaged bankruptcy plan, but it is a choice that they made. And it is entirely fair to compare that choice to the comments Obama made on the campaign trail in 2008.

The Obama administration wants to campaign this year on a theme claiming that he “saved the auto industry”. To be honest, had they entered a more traditional Chapter 11 process in the twilight of the Bush administration, I can't say that Janesville would have necessarily fared any better. I can say that the Volt would never have made it into production (at a fully loaded, fully subsidized-by-the-taxpayer cost of about $250,000 per vehicle sold) and Vauxhall – the European GM operations that are hemorrhaging money today – would have been sold in 2009. But Obama wants to claim that the way things played out was the only way to have avoided a liquidation and total vaporization of GM and Chrysler. That's simply not true. There were many alternative scenarios that could have played out, resulting in a continued presence by GM and Chrysler.

With the Obama Administration dialing in the winners and losers in the GM prepackaged bankruptcy they have to take responsibility for the way they did nothing for GM Janesville.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby snoqueen » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:29 am

So, if the Obama administration was involved in the bankruptcy process, could it be that they gave preference to plants that were more up to date, produced vehicles more attuned to the future than to the past (the big-vehicle gas-intensive past), and were thus more likely to give GM a fighting chance at success?

I was disappointed in the way President Obama failed to step up with support for the unions after Walker took office, and Janesville could be another example of Obama's priorities, which are unfortunately but necessarily shaped by concerns for profit (and campaign donations). That priority puts the worker on the losing end in both the examples before us.

I think Romney's priorities would be far, far worse, so I'm not changing my vote on the basis of Janesville. The whole thing just shows how skewed our entire political process is toward money, and away from the concerns of workers.

There were many alternative scenarios that could have played out, resulting in a continued presence by GM and Chrysler.


From what you are saying, we have many shades of gray here and not the black-and-white we see in politically-motivated speech. If your report is accurate (and it makes sense to me) there's enough blame to go around and stick to both parties. I'm not seeing Paul Ryan as any more truthful alongside your report -- I'm just seeing complexity where we've been offered overly-simplified sound bites.

Once again, I wish we had more than two political parties in this country.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:35 am

Thank you, Email Blast, for your cogent analysis. The same post is on Free Republic under the name "Wally Kalbacken". The problem with your analysis is that much of it is simply made up, a carefully crafted fable with you as the star intended to establish some personal expertise on the subject while you insert absurd assumptions designed to attack the President and prop up Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

And the entire screed is once again based upon the assertion that Obama promised to keep the plant open for 100 years, which he didn't.

Emil Blatz wrote:What Bush should have done was insist that they file Chapter 11 first, then advance the $17.8B to help them during reorganization (as DIP financing.) What he did by kicking the decision into the next year and the next administration was to give the Obama administration the ability to bend the bankruptcy process to favor the UAW and disadvantage the white collar workers, white collar retirees, and dealers at GM and Chrysler.


But that's really the crux of your tale, isn't it? The evil UAW and its unholy alliance with the Democratic Party? Even though union workers made the bulk of the concessions to save GM it wasn't enough because the union still exists. Right?

Emil Blatz wrote:I would point out that while the GM bankruptcy petition was filed on June 1st, 2009, the pre-petition bankruptcy planning was going on for probably 6 or 7 months prior to the petition date. The Obama administration was intimately involved in that process. It's not a crime that they did not favor the Janesville plant in the prepackaged bankruptcy plan, but it is a choice that they made. And it is entirely fair to compare that choice to the comments Obama made on the campaign trail in 2008.


Derp! Why would the President of the United States owe any more allegiance to the people of Janesville than any other citizens of the United States? Oh, right, because of that promise that he never made.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:46 am

pjbogart wrote:Thank you, Email Blast, for your cogent analysis. The same post is on Free Republic under the name "Wally Kalbacken". The problem with your analysis is that much of it is simply made up, a carefully crafted fable with you as the star intended to establish some personal expertise on the subject while you insert absurd assumptions designed to attack the President and prop up Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.



If that is true and Emil is not Wally; wow! What a complete douche.
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