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Ryan (not) Lyin

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:58 am

If that is true and Emil is not Wally; wow! What a complete douche.


I'm sure it's not just our friend Wally and Email Blast here. It's the official propaganda. Carefully crafted and handed down to the troops to post on message boards.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:12 am

Someone who used the name of Wally Kalbacken posted on this forum in the past.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:13 am

pjbogart wrote:And the entire screed is once again based upon the assertion that Obama promised to keep the plant open for 100 years, which he didn't.


This coming from a lady who knows something about screeds.

Did he sit down with Janesville GM and write out a legally binding contract that he would keep the plant open? No. But he said:

copy/pasted from your own quote wrote:"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."


We've heard what you think he didn't mean by that. Therefore, as whatever you think he did mean is a mystery to everybody, let's hear what you suppose it is that he really meant by that quote.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bland » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:08 am

Yeesh. 5 pages in and no one has yet asked the obvious question:
So what if Obama DID say he promised to help keep the plant open?*
It's almost as if those attacking him are so childish, naive, and unaware that they have never learned that political candidates often say things to pander to specific audiences. It's as if they've never before encountered a politician who is unable or unwilling to fulfill all the promises they made on the campaign trail. It's almost as if they are willfully ignoring promises made by past Presidential candidates. And the most hilarious part is the argument that we must oust Obama for his broken promises, to elect Mitt Romney, a man who promised more jobs, decreased debt, and smaller government before he was elected Governor of Massachussetts, and left office with increased debt, a larger government, and one of the worst records of job creation in the entire Union.








*He didn't.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:05 am

Bland wrote:Yeesh. 5 pages in and no one has yet asked the obvious question: So what if Obama DID say he promised to help keep the plant open?*

It's almost as if those attacking him are so childish, naive, and unaware that they have never learned that political candidates often say things to pander to specific audiences. It's as if they've never before encountered a politician who is unable or unwilling to fulfill all the promises they made on the campaign trail. It's almost as if they are willfully ignoring promises made by past Presidential candidates.

I honestly don't care what he said in Janesville. I don't even care that the factory closed down. In fact since its a union plant, I'm happy its closed.

What I do care about are these partisan "fact checkers" that get paraded around. People can't look beyond the label? "Fact checkers" are just partisan journalists. So when the president's campaign 'rebuts' Ryan's speech saying the plant closed down when it was still producing cars, and partisan 'fact checkers' go along with it, yes I like to point out they're lying. BECAUSE, it's not productive to allow the partisan president to push out factually untrue partisan propaganda - then here it lands in Madison and unless somebody points out "hey this isn't true," all the Democrats in town will spend the next two months talking about how the plant closed down while Bush was president. Meanwhile 30 miles down the road in the little town of Janesville there were people working in that plant producing Isuzu NPRs until the summer of 2009.

PJ probably thinks I care if the president promised or lied or not. I don't really give a damn. But I'd prefer she doesn't use her positive opinion of him as a paint brush to redefine his every word and action. Or we can just make everything up and whoever wins the election it won't matter because, in my mind, Zippy the Leprechaun won, and the whole election was a fraud.

PJ probably thinks I really care about defending Ryan - not really. I think he's great, reminds me of some of my relatives and generally has a similar view on the economy. Looking at what he actually said, there's not much to really complain about. I'm not interested in blindly defending anybody. I'm a person who gladly changes my opinion when I find an improvement.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bland » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:10 am

Bludgeon wrote:I'm not interested in blindly defending anybody.
I doubt that. But I know for certain that you are interested in blindly attacking people. It's called flailing and it makes you and your claims and your opinions look preposterous.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:11 am

Bland wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:I'm not interested in blindly defending anybody.
I doubt that. But I know for certain that you are interested in blindly attacking people. It's called flailing and it makes you and your claims and your opinions look preposterous.


What is the attack you're referencing?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby jman111 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:12 am

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year.

If you're gonna insist that the plant didn't "shut down" until the summer of 2009, isn't the above a "lie" by Ryan? Is everything that he said factually correct?
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:23 am

jman111 wrote:
Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year.

If you're gonna insist that the plant didn't "shut down" until late Summer 2009, isn't the above a "lie" by Ryan? Is everything that he said factually true?

I'm not insisting. It's in the Janesville Gazette. Anyway the plant was there for the duration of 2008; it was not there for the duration of 2009. In conversation when people say year they usually refer to the year of the calendar -- "This year, next year, last year". Year is both a specific amount of time and a specific place in time, depending on how it's used.

The odds are that he confused the date of the speech with the date of the election as a starting point, but if you firmly believe that he intentionally said "didn't last another year", instead of "didn't last another 19 months starting from the time he made the speech until the day they closed down the Isuzu section of the plant in summer 2009," I will let you enjoy that comfort.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby jman111 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:26 am

Not odd that you give Ryan (and only Ryan) the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:38 am

jman111 wrote:Not odd that you give Ryan (and only Ryan) the benefit of the doubt.


Like I said to bland I really don't care if Obama promised or not; there's a fair case to make that it was presidential partisan pillow talk, and you have to split a lot of hairs to portray his statements as portending absolutely nothing; so the odds are it was in some loose way a campaign promise, but like bland said, that's nothing new.

All anybody should care about right now is what direction they want the country to go; because if nothing else is plain, it certainly is plain that each winner would take us in a completely opposite direction.

And that's all people are really voting on. Some political genius must have figured out that the reason undecided voters are undecided voters is that they're stupid, and since they're stupid the way to get their votes is to dazzle them with split words to the point that they're so bewildered all they do is go vote for whatever side it is that knocks on their door and drags them to the polling booth.

Anyway as I said back a few, I really can't say I like anything about this president - I think Clinton was ten times the president. Clinton may be giving a speech at the convention but his real opinion has been on display all year long. But I don't care if I like him, I care about the direction he wants to lead the country - it is definitely not the direction I want the country to go. It's not even the direction I want the Democratic party to go. Obama is like Doyle - Democrats will be better off when he loses. Just think what a loss it would be to be stuck with Barrett when you can have Russ Feingold in 2014.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby snoqueen » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:44 pm

All anybody should care about right now is what direction they want the country to go; because if nothing else is plain, it certainly is plain that each winner would take us in a completely opposite direction.


We do need to choose a direction. With that much I can agree.

Neither choice which is optimal, in my opinion. Where's the candidate and party that actually optimizes opportunity and support for those who fall under, say, the 80th percentile of wealth in our country? Where's the candidate who acts on the assumption in order to have a functional and successful society, we have to share and have to pool our resources? Where's the candidate who understands that sharing multiplies the value and benefits we get from our public resources, and it's not a zero-sum game?

If governmental decisions means we lost the Janesville plant (which was, after all, obsolete in design and in what it produced) the government should be right in there with support for retraining or voluntary relocation of workers, for their families and dependents (including their health requirements), and material support for the state, county, and city in attracting new and progressive businesses.

These are not tasks that can be accomplished by the private sector alone.

Why is this not a salient point in any party's platform? Instead you have valuable human capital going right down the drain with nothing to hold it back, and no one expects anything better.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:04 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
The odds are that he confused the date of the speech with the date of the election as a starting point, but if you firmly believe that he intentionally said "didn't last another year", instead of "didn't last another 19 months starting from the time he made the speech until the day they closed down the Isuzu section of the plant in summer 2009," I will let you enjoy that comfort.

Ryan is many things, but he's not sloppy. Particularly not for the biggest speech of his life.

On Aug. 16, he made similar comments, and said "the plant closed in 2009". Those comments also drew the attention of fact checkers. So he knew the timing was an issue. And he also knew that fact changes would pay attention when he brought it up again at the convention. I conclude he chose his word quite deliberately.

But if you firmly believe he got careless when accepting the nomination for the VP of the USA, I will give you that comfort.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:35 pm

DCB wrote:Those comments also drew the attention of fact checkers.

And the fact checkers comments drew the attention of Fact-checking the factcheckers.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:07 pm

Sandi wrote:
DCB wrote:Those comments also drew the attention of fact checkers.

And the fact checkers comments drew the attention of Fact-checking the factcheckers.


Wow, Sandi. Thanks for nothing. Do the authors of "Hot Air" bother actually telling you who they're quoting? The article seems to be subtitled, "As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville." Who said that? Paul Ryan? I can't tell from the article.

Or this dandy:

Ryan acknowledged that the plant had already been slated for shutdown in 2008. That was his point. People voted for him because they thought Obama represented hope to get the plant back in operation. In fact, that had been known since at least February 2008, when Obama came to Janesville to speak, and specifically addressed the plant closure in his remarks, delivered at the plant itself — and promised to keep it and other plants like it open “for the next hundred years” (emphasis mine)


Really? An entire paragraph on the topic and the only words they actually quoted were "for the next hundred years"?

Can't you see when you're being duped, Sandi?
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