MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Wednesday, October 1, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 69.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

Are You in the Middle Class

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:41 am

According to our good buddy Mittens, the middle class are those who make $200,000 - $250,000 or less.

Huh?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... rent-true/

So the average poverty level is about $23,000 for a family of 4. So everyone between $23,000 and $250,000 are middle class? WTF. My standard of living is so vastly and completely different than someone making that much money it's not even comical.

According to the Census Bureau, the current median household income in the U.S. is slightly over $50,000.


http://www.salon.com/2012/09/14/mitt_ro ... 00_250000/

The dipshittery that is Romney makes me angry as much as it makes me chuckle. This guy is soooooooooo out of touch with how most people live.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4871
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Meade » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:54 am

You must have missed the Editor's note.

Editor’s note: This blog has been updated to reflect that in responding to a question from ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, Mitt Romney defined middle income for Americans as $200,000-$250,000 and less.
Meade
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:59 am

Meade wrote:You must have missed the Editor's note.


You must have missed my first line.

Stebben84 wrote:the middle class are those who make $200,000 - $250,000 or less.


To lump people into the same class structure who make $250,000 and $50,000 is fucking asinine. And, yes, we have class structures. It's not class warfare, but the fact that my lifestyle is so completely different than that of a person making more than 5 times as much as me.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4871
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Meade » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:02 pm

Obama also has set his definition for ‘‘middle class’’ as families with income of up to $250,000 a year.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/201 ... story.html

You're critical of Romney (who you call "Mittens") for saying essentially the same thing Obama said. Why no criticism of Obama?
Meade
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:20 pm

From your article, here is a QUOTE from Romney:

‘‘No, middle income is $200,000 to $250,000 and less,’’ Romney responded.


They then go on to say that is Obama's definition too. No quote. Find me that and then well talk. If he said it, then I'll think it's equally as fucked up.

Meade, do YOU think $250,000 is middle class? Do you think a family of 4 making that much is struggling as much as a family of 4 making $50,000.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4871
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby ilikebeans » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:30 pm

They both are saying $200-250k and less is middle class for tax purposes. And I think they're both wrong-- it should be lowered to around $100k and taxes raised on those above that. But that won't fly in today's Congress, and, in fact, even the $250k level won't fly with the Norquist-no-tax-pledge-signing rubes on the right (i.e., all of them).

From the ABC article:
“Number two, don’t reduce the share of taxes paid by the wealthiest. The top 5 percent will still pay the same share of taxes they pay today.

No no no no NO.

a) The rich should be taxed MORE. Period.

b) This statement is completely at odds with his running mate's budget plan. But hey, Ryan hasn't run the numbers, so, like, everything will work out, right?

c) Coming from someone with off-shore tax shelters in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere, it rings completely hollow.

Oh, and this little blurb from the article is a positive GEM:

Democrats say Romney’s plan would cause a $2,000 tax hike on the middle class - something Romney disputes and points to a number of studies that say his plan to cut taxes will not increase the deficit, including one by Harvard professor Martin Feldstein.

Feldstein says Romney’s math will work, but he would have to eliminate the home mortgage, charitable, state and local tax deductions for incomes greater than $100,000.

When I pressed Romney on that point, he conceded that he actually hadn’t read the Feldstein report that he and Paul Ryan cite on the campaign trail.

“I haven’t seen his precise study,” he said.

He and Ryan seem to have this little problem of not reading the shit they talk about. Christ, they couldn't pass a freshman midterm and want to be elected to the highest offices in the land??
ilikebeans
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:23 am

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:39 pm

Stebben84 wrote:From your article, here is a QUOTE from Romney:

‘‘No, middle income is $200,000 to $250,000 and less,’’ Romney responded.


They then go on to say that is Obama's definition too. No quote. Find me that and then well talk. If he said it, then I'll think it's equally as fucked up.

Meade, do YOU think $250,000 is middle class? Do you think a family of 4 making that much is struggling as much as a family of 4 making $50,000.



hate to say it but the whole article is from the non-paywall section of the Boston globe, and the source is a interview with George Stephanopoulos. Not a high likely hood of it being conservative spin.

http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/c ... y-politics

The fact that both think that up to $250,000 is middle class is indeed a bit silly. Then again we probably need more definitions beyond "in poverty", "Middle Class" and "Rich" or "Upper Class". There is also a huge difference between someone making $250,000 and someone making $1,000,000, or someone at just above poverty and someone making $50,000.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2475
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:49 pm

The article was just updated:

According to a 2009 Tax Policy Center study of income distributions, earners making $180,000 and more are in the top 5 percent of the population.


ilikebeans wrote:They both are saying $200-250k and less is middle class for tax purposes. And I think they're both wrong


You know what. Fuck 'em all, but I do think the way that Romney answered the questions is, if anything, stupid.

“Is $100,000 middle income?” Stephanopoulos asked.

“No, middle income is $200,000 to $250,000 and less,” Romney responded.


Francis Di Domizio wrote:Then again we probably need more definitions beyond "in poverty", "Middle Class" and "Rich" or "Upper Class".


Agreed. And Meade, I will say that Obama is equally as fucked up for making the reference. I agree with Beans that both sides are wrong.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4871
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Detritus » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:56 pm

According to the Census (according to that article), the median income is $50,000. Are you measuring "middle" in terms of median income or mean (average) income? You'll get very different numbers depending on which one you use.

And, of course, "middle class" is a social concept, not an economic one, anyway. There is an economic component, but as Meade has so aptly demonstrated, nobody understands how that works.
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2405
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:01 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The fact that both think that up to $250,000 is middle class is indeed a bit silly.
I must be a bit silly too, as I think that's a reasonable cut-off. (After all, we're talking about the very tippymost top of the middle class, right?)

To me that seems doable with 2 good jobs, a few wise investments and a little something extra on the side- like a small home business or some freelance work or having some stuff published or whatever.

$250,000 for a single person would be upper class, but for a family of four? Doesn't "upper class" sorta mean, "can do pretty much whatever they want as money isn't really an issue?"
Bland
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 am

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Bland wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:The fact that both think that up to $250,000 is middle class is indeed a bit silly.
I must be a bit silly too, as I think that's a reasonable cut-off. (After all, we're talking about the very tippymost top of the middle class, right?)

To me that seems doable with 2 good jobs, a few wise investments and a little something extra on the side- like a small home business or some freelance work or having some stuff published or whatever.

$250,000 for a single person would be upper class, but for a family of four? Doesn't "upper class" sorta mean, "can do pretty much whatever they want as money isn't really an issue?"


Hence my later statement that we really should have more than 3 economic brackets for purpose of this discussion. A more clear statement probably would have been that thinking that a family making $50,000 and a family making $250,000 are in the same economic group or have the same financial issues to deal with, is plain silly.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2475
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:09 pm

Bland wrote:To me that seems doable with 2 good jobs, a few wise investments and a little something extra on the side- like a small home business or some freelance work or having some stuff published or whatever.


Bland, How many families do you know bring in a gross income of around $250,000 per year?

In my opinion, in terms of the "economics" I see around $150,000 as the end of "middle class"

Detritus wrote:And, of course, "middle class" is a social
concept, not an economic one, anyway.


I fully agree and that's why I think Romney's response was crap.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4871
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Bland, How many families do you know bring in a gross income of around $250,000 per year?
More than none but less than a shitload. Then again, I don't generally go around asking people what their income is. Do you? Also not sure how my personal contacts are relevant to a discussion about how to socially divide economic earnings. What exactly am I supposed to representative of? (For the record, I earn less than $50,000/yr. and live alone.) Which part of my equation makes people not middle class? Two jobs? Wise investments? Extra income on the side?

In my mind:
Lower class = too little money
Middle class = enough money
Upper class = way more than enough money

If you have a division that makes more sense, I'd love to hear it. (And remember that I AGREE $250,000/yr. is stretching the term to its limit. That's why it's at the very tippiest top of the upperest toppermost.)
Bland
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 am

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby snoqueen » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:21 pm

...we really should have more than 3 economic brackets for purpose of this discussion. A more clear statement probably would have been that thinking that a family making $50,000 and a family making $250,000 are in the same economic group or have the same financial issues to deal with, is plain silly.


We do need more economic brackets for this discussion and at first I was thinking we could go with five, like lowest 20% - next 20% etc.

Then I realized the top 1% or so are so influential and powerful to lump them in with the 19% just below them obscures a lot of useful information. So I'd go with the 20% groupings but save a separate bracket for the one-percenters, who really are in a world of their own.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11542
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Are You in the Middle Class

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:29 pm

There are more divisions. Appending upper, lower and middle to each class is extremely common. So that's 9. How many more do we need?
Bland
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 am

Next

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Henry Vilas, Ned Flanders and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar