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Sandy as election spoiler excuse

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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:56 am

Huckleby wrote:Romney held a sham campaign rally in Ohio yesterday where he pretended it was a relief effort. They had a photo op collection of canned goods for the Red Cross that the Red Cross explicitly has no use for.

If the mainstream media is so in the tank for Obama, why didn't they highlight this embarassing lack of leadership and judgement on Mitt's part? I suppose they didn't want to have a political dust-up in the midst of a tragedy. Only MSNBC dared to run with it.
I don't know about televised coverage because I don't watch any live tv, but this story was covered by many major news outlets on the web. I don't think this is indicative of a media conspiracy, btw.

The Red Cross took the donations in the end, and Romney events have switched to asking for cash donations for the RC at campaign events. The canned good thing was a little ridiculous, but again, what else was Romney to do that would demonstrate his willingness to help? Obama has a photographer to document his actions while he is conference-calling with governors and steering federal resources from the Oval Office - this looks great for the campaign! The best thing Romney could do, from the perspective of charity, would be to redirect donations to the Red Cross, which doesn't look like anything at all from a photographic standpoint. It wouldn't even be worth a writeup. If you turned that sort of thing into a photo-op (e.g. Romney and Ryan standing behind a 4-foot check to the Red Cross), he would be criticized for being crass in much the same way he is now.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 am

snoqueen wrote:And the idea all the coordination and work should be done privately is the most insulting of all. When one of these mega-contractors is hired to do the fixing, first of all we have no control over its behavior. Second, someone (like, for instance, Mitt Romney) makes a profit. The idea of a large entity making a profit on this mess, especially in the first few weeks of recovery, is obscene.
This is a profoundly wrong and economically-ignorant point of view. Profit, in tandem with elastic pricing, is the guide by which scarce resources are most adequately distributed according to need. And you can bet that private organizations are already readjusting their supply chains to profit from this storm, independent of government involvement. Walmart and other major retailers already have people working day and night to resupply store shelves in the hardest-hit areas. I'm perfectly comfortable with them making a tidy profit in exchange for their actions.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby rrnate » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 am

Phew! I am glad Arturo is comfortable and can now get on with my day.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:07 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Profit, in tandem with elastic pricing, is the guide by which scarce resources are most adequately distributed according to need.
Profit and the free market may be your guide, but there is absolutely no reason why this must be the case for everyone or in all situations. I agree with snoqueen that it should not be in this case and I am actually offended that you would label that position as "profoundly wrong" as if capitalism is the only solution and those of us who see things differently are completely lacking in insight or incapable of anything but superficial thoughts. I believe that disaster relief is exactly the kind of problem that should be the domain of government and not be left to private enterprise. I have no problem with you disagreeing with that, but how about you stop pretending that your position is the only valid one, ok?
ArturoBandini wrote: I'm perfectly comfortable with them making a tidy profit in exchange for their actions.
I have no problem with Wal-Mart profiting from doing what they normally do: stocking and selling goods. That is such a far cry from hiring private contractors to coordinate and provide relief services (which is what sno was talking about) it's laughable you'd even compare them.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Arturo, you are a hardcore libertarian. Should FEMA be dismantled (as Romney used to say)?
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:41 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: That is such a far cry from hiring private contractors to coordinate and provide relief services (which is what sno was talking about) it's laughable you'd even compare them.


It's not as though the "free market" will prevail in these circumstances. Given the magnitude and cost of these operations, there is probably one maybe 2 companies in the US who could even come close to coordinating this. Also, it's not like people have a "choice" as to who they would like helping them out. There will still be a lot of free market shit that will be going on with the clean-up including sub contractors, companies selling goods, construction companies, etc...

I sure as hell hope you don't think a PRIVATE company could coordinate the effort like FEMA and the States. If so, you're delusional.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:57 pm

Wags, I was referring to the quoted statement in bold text (that's why I made it bold). Finding it obscene that someone might profit from their assistance in an emergency situation is what is profoundly wrong, in an economic and philosophical sense. This does not exclude the possibility that non-profit private or public operations can also play a role. I am not snubbing the help of any type of organization, rather snoqueen is.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:57 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Arturo, you are a hardcore libertarian. Should FEMA be dismantled (as Romney used to say)?

Let's talk about it in a month after everyone's emotions have calmed down a bit.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:03 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Arturo, you are a hardcore libertarian. Should FEMA be dismantled (as Romney used to say)?

Let's talk about it in a month after everyone's emotions have calmed down a bit.

I'll take that as a yes.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Michael Patrick » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:08 pm

Well of course the free market is the optimal way to do storm relief. Duh.

Because with my house knocked off it's foundation by wind and waves, and no phone, electricity, or Internet service, not to mention no food, shelter, or clean water, I'm going to be able to negotiate the best prices with contractors. I mean, I'm gonna get that sucker right where the supply and demand curves meet, by God.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Arturo, you are a hardcore libertarian. Should FEMA be dismantled (as Romney used to say)?

Let's talk about it in a month after everyone's emotions have calmed down a bit.

I'll take that as a yes.


Ya, lets wait a month so people don't have fresh in their minds how good a government run program can be. What a disingenuous fuck. Start another thread. Lets discuss this now.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Ned Flanders » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:30 pm

Remember the part about how much the Lefties hated FEMA during and after Katrina? Sheesh :roll:
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby nutria » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Remember the part about how much the Lefties hated FEMA during and after Katrina? Sheesh :roll:


Wow. Talk about selective memory....

The problem people had with FEMA during Katrina was that it had been so neutered by the Bush administration (both financially and administratively, when it was absorbed into DHS) that it was unable to do the job it had done in the past.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:39 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Remember the part about how much the Lefties hated FEMA during and after Katrina? Sheesh :roll:


No, they hated the incompetence put in charge of FEMA by the guy in charge.
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Re: Sandy as election spoiler excuse

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:46 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Finding it obscene that someone might profit from their assistance in an emergency situation is what is profoundly wrong, in an economic and philosophical sense.
No, it isn't, and I'll ask you again to stop insulting anyone who arrives at a conclusion which differs from your own by suggesting we are inherently ignorant or immoral.

I personally find it obscene that anyone would seek to profit on the backs of disasters which befall others. And I also find it extremely distressing that your economic and philosophical position is that such behavior should not only be encouraged, but that anyone who disagrees is some kind of rube who shouldn't be invited to sit at the adult table. Disaster relief is exactly the kind of thing I think government should exist for and why I think taxes should be collected. It's fine that you disagree, but everyone who doesn't share your view is not "profoundly wrong" simply because you say so.
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