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Politics and the CT shooting

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby snoqueen » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:52 pm

On the other hand, it does help burglars decide which house to watch, so that when nobody's home they can steal guns.

Which they then take to their own house, which is not called out on the map but then becomes full of guns too.

I think the overall effect of making this information readily available is nil.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:57 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
(Whose population has increased dramatically over the past 25-30 years, BTW)


You sure about that?


Yup.

Current bear populations

20-25,000 polar bears worldwide


http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/where_w ... opulation/

Up from 5-10,000 back in the 70's before the hunting bans went into effect.

John Henry
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:00 pm

O.J. wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:Unlike, say, the Sierra Club which gets 25% of its funding from a single natural gas company. In exchange for which their lobbyists bash the bejabbers out of coal.John Henry


I apologize for distracting you with actual facts, johnnydumbass, but that's no longer the case.


Are you positive that this is no longer the case?

I know they say it is no longer the case.

I also know that they initially tried to say it was not the case even when it was the case.

Have you seen their donor's list?

Why should we trust them to be clean now?

I don't know whether they are taking Chesepeake money now or not. They have certainly demonstrated that they have no shame about taking it if they think they can get away with it.

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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:07 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:So how much money does the NRA get from gun (and releated stuff) manufacturers? Versus how much money it gets from memberships from individuals and non-related corporations?

You could look it up, Henry.

Please enlighten us.

From the Washington Post: They can pry the NRA's donor list from its cold, dead hands


You can't tell how much any individual or company gives but how much revenue they receive and general source ie; mfg or member dues is public record.

You could look it up.

But you won't.

Will you?

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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:21 pm

If you want to make a point in rebuttal, present your own case. Don't ask me to do your homework.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:24 pm

[quote="snoqueen"][/quote]

For those interested, here is an interactive map with the names, home addresses home phones, FB accounts and emails of all editorial employees of the Journal.

"Being included in this map does not mean the individual at a specific location is a responsible reporter or editor, just that they are a reporter or editor."

http://www.newrochelletalk.com/content/ ... ighborhood

The reporter on the story can be contacted for either bouquets or brickbats (metaphorical only, please) at his home:

Dwight R Worley,
23006 139 Ave
Springfield Gardens, NY 11413
(718) 527 0832



Don't go to his house unless you are packing heat. He has a handgun permit.

If you do talk to him, ask how he got his permit. In NYC you pretty much have to be God's first cousin to get a handgun permit. He must have some powerful juice at city hall.

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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:If you want to make a point in rebuttal, present your own case. Don't ask me to do your homework.


I didn't think you were interested in facts. You say the NRA is a lobbying arm of the gun industry but present no evidence to back that up.

You are the one making the claim. Seems like it would be up to you to provide something to substantiate it.

Much more fun to just chant NRA=GUN MANUFACTURES over and over, isn't it?

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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:53 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:I didn't think you were interested in facts. You say the NRA is a lobbying arm of the gun industry but present no evidence to back that up.


Take it or leave it:

Who does the National Rifle Association represent? In its direct-mail solicitations and public statements, the NRA presents itself as the uncompromising voice of the American gun owner. But new research reveals that since 2005 the NRA has received millions of dollars from the gun industry. The means by which the industry helps fund the NRA vary: from million-dollar industry grants to a program that rounds up gun store customers’ purchases to the nearest dollar with the difference going to the NRA—including a contribution from a soon-to-be mass shooter buying ammunition. Corporate contributors to the NRA come from every sector of the firearms industry, including: manufacturers of handguns, rifles, shotguns, assault weapons, and high-capacity ammunition magazines; gun distributors and
dealers; and, vendors of ammunition and other shooting-related products. And they come from outside the firearms industry—including. Xe, the new name for the now-infamous Blackwater Worldwide.


http://www.vpc.org/studies/bloodmoney.pdf

This is a good article which with which I found this study:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... or/266373/

But, they are just articles. I'm guessing I'll get a response such as
"oh, but that's a biased article, blah, blah, blah" Well, you wanted a statistic, so have at it.

*Edited to include VPC link
Last edited by Stebben84 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby pjbogart » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:54 am

If it wasn't on Newmax, it didn't happen.

I'd like to say that John Henry has become a TDPF clown, but I think he's probably always been a clown, it just took a while to nail it down.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:58 am

Stebben84 wrote:
Who does the National Rifle Association represent?


Now that is an interesting technique that I don't think I have run across before. Provide an extensive quote from somewhere (Apparently a K Street lobbying/law firm called the Violence Policy Center. Mostly funded by the Joyce Foundation, apparently to funnel Joyce money to Josh Sugarman. Looks like a very interesting organization. I can understand why you would prefer not to link)

Don't link it but link to something completely different. Bravo, Stebben. Very nifty. Not particularly honest but nifty.

I guess the answer to my question comes in this sentence, doesn't it Stebben:

But new research reveals that since 2005 the NRA has received millions of dollars from the gun industry.


How many millions do you think this might be, Stebben? $3mm? $5? $10? Seems like if it were $20 or more, with the scary writing style, they would have characterized it as "tens of millions"

I wonder what "new research" this might be? NRA has never made any secret that they take money from manufacturers.

As to that scary sounding program "that rounds up gun store customers’ purchases to the nearest dollar with the difference going to the NRA..."

How does that come from manufacturers? It is a program asking individuals to voluntarily donate as much as 99 cents to the NRA. I get asked this all the time in McDonalds, Walgreens, and other stores. Not for the NRA of course but for other charities. (Usually to buy a butterfly, flower or some other sticker that they will paste on the wall)

By this logic those boxes on the McDonald's counter for Ronald McDonald Bouses are a sinister plot of the big meat lobbies.

Really? This is the best you can do?

Shame on you.

From the Atlantic article that you did link to but did not quote from:

It's also worth pointing out that all of those corporate donations -- excluding the magazine advertising -- have been a mere drop in the bucket compared to the NRA's entire budget. The big givers might have more influence than most, but one would think that the organization's first priority would almost certainly have to be keeping its sprawling membership base content.
[/quote]

You and Henry Vilas should probably get a room.


John Henry

(Edited to fix a formatting issue)
Last edited by johnfajardohenry on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:20 am

Also from the Atlantic article that Stebben linked but did not quote:

Between then [2005-JRH] and 2011, the Violence Policy Center estimates that the firearms industry donated as much as $38.9 million to the NRA's coffers.


Note the wording. "As much as..." Could have been less but let's take the number they want us to think.

That is "as much as" $5.5mm per year.

NRA has 4.3mm members, each paying at least $35 per year. That is about $150mm. Each year. Over the 7 yr period that the manufacturers were paying "as much as" $38mm, members paid over a billion dollars just in individual dues.

Yeah. I can certainly understand how a group could be dominated by the ones that paid the $38mm ("as much as") and not the ones that paid the Billion. (more than, actually)

I'll bet Obie is doing wonders for their membership. I suspect they will see a substantial bump in 2013. I'm thinking of rejoining myself.

Back to you, Stebben.


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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby wack wack » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:35 am

Sandi wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:I think you're giving burglars too much credit. Doubtful all but a handful are "wise". Most burglaries are done by drug addicts who need more money for more drugs. I don't think too many of them read the paper. but hey lets run with this made-for-TV reality you seem to live in. It's entertaining.


Is because all burglars won't consult the map, it is ok to make it available for those that will.

If you were a burglar which would you rather hit?

Image


I'd rather hit the houses with guns, and take them. Without the element of surprise, your gun possession is virtually worthless. In fact, I might make it a point to make sure I encounter you and put my gun in your face, just to be sure you understood that.

More likely though, I'd case your place and wait until everyone leaves, because, you know, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and with no people home to man the guns it doesn't matter how many guns are there, I'm safe.

You know, if I were a burglar and all.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:56 am

Is because all burglars won't consult the map, it is ok to make it available for those that will.


Is (sic) because all assault rifle owners won't go on a shooting spree, it is ok to make them available for those that will?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:57 am

johnfajardohenry wrote: I can understand why you would prefer not to link)


It was an oversight. I'll also correct my post.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/bloodmoney.pdf

Here is a good story from a former gun lobbyist.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16324652

johnfajardohenry wrote:Mostly funded by the Joyce Foundation, apparently to funnel Joyce money to Josh Sugarman.


You're kidding. A lobbying group actually pays it's executive director?

johnfajardohenry wrote:Yeah. I can certainly understand how a group could be dominated by the ones that paid the $38mm ("as much as") and not the ones that paid the Billion. (more than, actually)


Then how do you explain this:

Seventy-four percent of the current and former NRA members and 87 percent of the other gun owners supported criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun, according to the poll.

Seventy-nine percent of current and former NRA members and 80 percent of the other gun owners supported requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees to ensure they are not felons, the poll found.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... 2O20120725

Yet the NRA fights this shit tooth and nail. Seems to me that an overwhelming majority want one thing, and the organization does another. Huh? Why is that?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:22 am

Stebben84 wrote:You're kidding. A lobbying group actually pays it's executive director?


No problem there. What piqued my interest is that they pay him and Kristen Rand $145m each (plus benefits?). Between them they get a tad more than 1/3 of the total revenues. Probably more if benefits are counted.

Besides paying Sugarman and Rand and issuing a few press releases, it doesn't seem like they do much else.



And I note that you don't tell us who did the poll. Really, Stebben. In any event, it was "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org which turns out to be the New York City Government. www.nyc.gov

They too have an interesting balance sheet. They took in around $1.2mm in 2010 yet had about $1.3mm cash on hand at the end of the year. (According to their 990)

When you click on the Mayors... link it redirects to www.demandaplan.org which has proxy registration so who knows who is behind it.

In any event, I suspect that the NRA has a better handle on what their members want than this poll. If they operate against the members' interest, they will see a lot of members not renewing.

Seems like a pretty slender reed, Stebben, even for you. But whatever floats your boat.

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