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women in combat

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women in combat

Postby you must be joking » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:02 am

Are you in favor of allowing women to be in front line combat positions? Would you want it to be voluntary, or would you be in favor of women being drafted for front line combat positions?

Currently there is no draft. If the draft came back, women could be included in the draft. The draft may not be limited to those of say age 18-22, it could be for those that are older than that. Would you be in favor of allowing women who have small children to be exempt from a draft?

Just wondering.
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Re: women in combat

Postby rabble » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:37 am

There is absolutely zero chance of the draft ever coming back. Zip. Nada.

None of the one percent would allow their kids to go and they wouldn't be able to get away with buying a deferment. There wouldn't be enough body armor and riot shields for the local police forces. Nothing would galvanize the rank and file more than that and everyone knows it.

Might as well discuss whether we'd need the army if we drafted Superman.
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Re: women in combat

Postby bdog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:58 am

I think it's a big mistake to always count on Superman.

Image
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Re: women in combat

Postby rabble » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:06 am

But, I think anyone who wants to be a combatant should get the chance to pass the tests .

One guy on a radio call in show said there should still be two sets of tests but instead of male/female they should be combat/support.

On the average, when you put it on a curve, men are stronger than women. But the two curves overlap. The people in that overlap should be allowed to serve where they fit best.

Oh, and I should probably clarify my thoughts on the draft: Drafting into the army is never going to happen again. But I think requiring two years of community service, of which the military is one possible choice, would have a better chance. Two years of government work with a guaranteed paycheck gives you a shot at a college degree. Something like that.
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Re: women in combat

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:18 am

The opening post reminds me of the arguments used to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.
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Re: women in combat

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:02 pm

I think requiring two years of community service, of which the military is one possible choice, would have a better chance. Two years of government work with a guaranteed paycheck gives you a shot at a college degree. Something like that.


I could also see the argument for making this service voluntary but offering benefits upon completion, like two years paid tuition at a community college or technical college with credits that transfer.
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Re: women in combat

Postby david cohen » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:47 pm

Never say never. If we got into a war with China, and they tried to invade our mainland, you bet your ass there would be a draft.
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Re: women in combat

Postby Detritus » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:07 pm

david cohen wrote:Never say never. If we got into a war with China, and they tried to invade our mainland, you bet your ass there would be a draft.

This is possibly the least likely scenario I have ever heard, with the exception of the GOP following Jindal's advice not to be the stupid party. We stand greater danger of being invaded by Greenland than China.
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Re: women in combat

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:10 pm

The draft was extremely unpopular during the Civil War, with anti-draft riots in places like New York City and Port Washington, Wisconsin. I bet after that war many Americans thought we would never have a draft again.
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Re: women in combat

Postby rabble » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:17 pm

Assuming we ever had an all out multi-front war we'd have to weigh the cost of massive protests and resistance vs the number of actual, useful recruits we'd get and in these times I don't think the cost would outweigh the benefit. The days when a goldbricking slacker with a ninth grade education and fifth grade reading skills was any use at all are long gone. The military needs techs, not grunts. A tech who doesn't want to be there is more help to the enemy than us.

If we were invaded it would be an entirely different story but other than that, a draft would be more hindrance than help.
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Re: women in combat

Postby green union terrace chair » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:23 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The draft was extremely unpopular during the Civil War, with anti-draft riots in places like New York City and Port Washington, Wisconsin. I bet after that war many Americans thought we would never have a draft again.

Yes. I would never say never about many things, including the draft. Black swan events quickly change national priorities (9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc.) The tides of public opinion change rapidly. Who knows what tomorrow will bring?

My chivalry makes me want to oppose allowing women in combat. But my belief that the federal government should be gender-neutral in all things means I must support women in combat. So I guess the way I can satisfy both of those things is to continue holding doors open for lady soldiers.
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Re: women in combat

Postby green union terrace chair » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:27 pm

In our latest middle-east adventures, there were stories of Reservists and active duty soldiers on their fourth and fifth tours. I wonder, was this because the US wanted to avoid a draft so badly? Was the same thing common during Vietnam even with the draft, or did the draft allow fewer tours and shorter stays than we've seen with Iraq and Afghanistan?
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Re: women in combat

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:37 pm

green union terrace chair wrote:In our latest middle-east adventures, there were stories of Reservists and active duty soldiers on their fourth and fifth tours. I wonder, was this because the US wanted to avoid a draft so badly?

Exactly. Bush/Cheney didn't want widespread opposition to their invasion of Iraq that would have resulted if the draft was reinstated.

Was the same thing common during Vietnam even with the draft, or did the draft allow fewer tours and shorter stays than we've seen with Iraq and Afghanistan?

If one served a full year in Vietnam then no further deployment to the war zone. If the tour was less than a year, then one could be sent back again (but just for a second tour).
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Re: women in combat

Postby you must be joking » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:11 pm

rabble wrote:There is absolutely zero chance of the draft ever coming back. Zip. Nada.

None of the one percent would allow their kids to go and they wouldn't be able to get away with buying a deferment. There wouldn't be enough body armor and riot shields for the local police forces. Nothing would galvanize the rank and file more than that and everyone knows it.

Might as well discuss whether we'd need the army if we drafted Superman.


rabble,

Thanks for your reply but I think you must consider the following.

According to what I read, the selective service System remains in place. Men between 18-25 are required to register. In 1918 the Supreme Court held that the draft is constitutional being that the Congress has the authority to declare war, to raise and support armies. In WWII the draft was for men age 18-65 with those who were most likely to be drafted between the age of 18-45. In 1953 President Eisenhower signed executive orders that ended paternity deferment for married men.
It must be remembered that according to the Constitution, Congress has the authority to declare war, to raise and support armies. There is nothing in this language that suggests women cannot be drafted.
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Re: women in combat

Postby green union terrace chair » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:19 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
green union terrace chair wrote:In our latest middle-east adventures, there were stories of Reservists and active duty soldiers on their fourth and fifth tours. I wonder, was this because the US wanted to avoid a draft so badly?

Exactly. Bush/Cheney didn't want widespread opposition to their invasion of Iraq that would have resulted if the draft was reinstated.

Was the same thing common during Vietnam even with the draft, or did the draft allow fewer tours and shorter stays than we've seen with Iraq and Afghanistan?

If one served a full year in Vietnam then no further deployment to the war zone. If the tour was less than a year, then one could be sent back again (but just for a second tour).

Thanks for this info, Henry. It's something I didn't know, and illustrates some not-so-subtle differences between the two conflicts that I don't think were part of the dominant conversation over the last decade.

Regarding the original topic of "women in combat" ... I've further refined my position. Because all citizens are to be treated equally under the law, then all citizens should be considered for military service, regardless of gender. Along those lines of gender-neutrality, all citizens should have to meet the same physical fitness requirements in order to serve.
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