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The Immigration Debate

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:05 pm

Sandi wrote:No inequality has nothing to do with it. The only equality to be concerned with is equality of opportunity in education and non-discrimination.
So inequality has nothing to do with it, except where inequality has a lot to do with it. Check.
Sandi wrote:The left likes to push financial equality...
No one said anything about financial equality except you. Ending poverty doesn't mean abolishing all wealth differences, it means making sure everybody has enough money to survive on. You do know there are many, many millions of people who don't have enough money to survive on, don't you? They're the ones dying of hunger even though there's plenty of food to feed them.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:53 pm

Mad Howler wrote:OK 'Uncle Milton'...
I'm honored.
Mad Howler wrote:Your point advances a critical discussion that hasn't seen serious attention for roughly half a century.
You mean, because it is now accepted as an obvious truth that warrants no further discussion?
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:20 am

rabble wrote:They aren't starving because food is scarce.
There are resources other than the aggregate amount of edible food that factor into the logistics of global food distribution. I agree that poverty (deficiency of resources/wealth) is a major factor, but what causes poverty?
They're starving because the profit's better elsewhere.
True, but this is not the only reason. Lack of stable social institutions like respect for private property rights is another reason why poor farmers can't seem to get their stuff together. I'm sure you can think of other reasons, too.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby rabble » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:12 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
rabble wrote:They aren't starving because food is scarce.
There are resources other than the aggregate amount of edible food that factor into the logistics of global food distribution. I agree that poverty (deficiency of resources/wealth) is a major factor, but what causes poverty?
They're starving because the profit's better elsewhere.
True, but this is not the only reason. Lack of stable social institutions like respect for private property rights is another reason why poor farmers can't seem to get their stuff together. I'm sure you can think of other reasons, too.

Only one. We choose to let people starve and let pompous callous assholes come up with longwinded rationalizations to make the choice seem reasonable.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:12 pm

rabble wrote:Only one [reason for global hunger]. We choose to let people starve and let pompous callous assholes come up with longwinded rationalizations to make the choice seem reasonable.
Do you seriously believe this? If so, please lay out your argument. If the cause of global hunger is really so simple, then you should have a simple solution to offer, right?
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby rabble » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:01 pm

Didn't bother to read the article, eh?
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:08 pm

rabble wrote:Didn't bother to read the article, eh?
What article are you talking about? The Huffington Post one?
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby The One » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:46 pm

I tried looking up to see how many people die of hunger in the U.S. each year. The CDC doesn't track it. I'm still not sure where people think the U.S. can solve the world's poverty problem by loosening immigration standards.

To some of you, this may be an asshole comment, but I draw from a lesson I was taught if I ever tried to rescue a person from drowning. You are suppose to offer them something to hold onto (flotation device, pole, and so on) and never try to hold them. Reason being, you will be pulled down with them and you both die. I see the same thing when it comes to this debate. I have no problem trying to help/save needy people in impoverished countries, but I do have a problem opening all of our resources to them. In the process, we will spend it all and get pulled down with them.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby The One » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:08 pm

Foreign governments lobbying hard in immigration reform. Looks like many countries are seeing dollar signs if immigration reform goes through. And why not? In the article, "Total remittances to El Salvador in 2010 were $3.6 billion in 2010.
For Mexico, the figure was $22.7 billion, or 2.1 percent of GDP."

That's a lot of money not being spent at home.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby DCB » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:13 pm

pjbogart wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:Not that rhetorical quibbles aren't fun, of course.


Maybe for you. Derailing discussions seems to be your specialty. Did you have anything to add to the immigration debate?

Well, its now 4 days and 2 pages later - are we still talking about immigration?

I think the thread went off the rails here, reinforcing my belief that no good can from engaging with stupid "ideas", even dismissively.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:24 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Mad Howler wrote:OK 'Uncle Milton'...
I'm honored.
Mad Howler wrote:Your point advances a critical discussion that hasn't seen serious attention for roughly half a century.
You mean, because it is now accepted as an obvious truth that warrants no further discussion?


Was that a back handed "I know you are, but what am I?". Ha! So clever! Good luck finding yourself on a reasonable side of history, if you care about such notions.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:40 pm

Mad Howler wrote:Was that a back handed "I know you are, but what am I?". Ha! So clever! Good luck finding yourself on a reasonable side of history, if you care about such notions.
As is the case with many of your posts, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:49 pm

DCB wrote:Well, its now 4 days and 2 pages later - are we still talking about immigration?
Here's what I see to be the core issues for discussion. Feel free to add your own take on this list:
1. Which/how many individuals should be given the opportunity for citizenship? What should the conditions for citizenship be?
2. Should existing domestic policies be reevaluated in light of the large number of foreign-born individuals already in the country, "legally" or otherwise? What changes will be required once a proper course of action on Issue #1 is decided upon?
3. One big wall or a series of smaller walls?
4. In what ways can the issue of immigration be used for leverage in the partisan political arena, both in the area of courting new voters from immigrant populations and supporters thereof, and in using discussion of immigration policy as a rhetorical tool to shame and marginalize the opposing party.
5. They took are jerbz.
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:19 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Here's what I see to be the core issues for discussion. Feel free to add your own take on this list:
1. Which/how many individuals should be given the opportunity for citizenship? What should the conditions for citizenship be?
2. Should existing domestic policies be reevaluated in light of the large number of foreign-born individuals already in the country, "legally" or otherwise? What changes will be required once a proper course of action on Issue #1 is decided upon?
3. One big wall or a series of smaller walls?
4. In what ways can the issue of immigration be used for leverage in the partisan political arena, both in the area of courting new voters from immigrant populations and supporters thereof, and in using discussion of immigration policy as a rhetorical tool to shame and marginalize the opposing party.
5. They took are jerbz.


Wow, that was special. I haven't resorted to this for a while...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD4q3leE ... ata_player
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Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby snoqueen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:11 pm

The easiest solution goes like this:

The Democrats are finding a ready source of potential new supporters in the Mexican/Hispanic undocumented immigrant population, and are working to find them a "path to citizenship."

The Republicans need to find a similar ready source of potential new supporters, enabling the two parties to see a common interest and solve this problem together.

Now y'all need to help me figure out what imaginable ethnic/nationality group could possibly be full of potential Republicans. I'm not coming up with much.
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