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Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Galoot » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:43 pm

Definition of successful trolling--when Ned can drag a thread out for 5 pages, while saying absolutely nothing meaningful.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Meade » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:19 pm

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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:16 pm

Image

Anyone want one of these in their backyard? I bet is smells like rose pedals.

"This is going to be an extensive and long cleanup," said onsite EPA coordinator Nicolas Brescia. "Right now, the goal is to pick up as much free product as they can." He added, "I can't tell you how long it's going to take to clean up all the impacted areas."


http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/04/01-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 30m8U6VP3E

Pretty street rivers. Oh, by all means, lets put an even bigger pipeline through the middle of the country. What could possibly go wrong? We can trust the oil companies, can't we?
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:57 pm

This is why you build pipelines.

CASSELTON, N.D. — A mile-long train carrying crude oil derailed just a mile before it would have cut through the heart of a small North Dakota town, shaking residents with a series of explosions that sent flame and black smoke skyward. No one was hurt, but officials were evacuating as many as 300 people as a precaution.

The mile-long BNSF Railway Co. train left the tracks about 2:30 p.m. Monday, and as many as 10 cars caught fire. They were still burning four hours later as darkness fell, and authorities said they would be allowed to burn out.

Cass County Sheriff’s Sgt. Tara Morris said the evacuation of a section of the town Casselton was a precaution in case of a wind shift. A thick smoke plume from the burning cars was largely staying to the southeast of town. Casselton has about 2,400 residents and is about 25 miles west of Fargo.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:22 pm

Sandi wrote:This is why you build pipelines
No, this is why we should reduce dependence on fossil fuels.

I'd wager most people opposed to building pipelines are also opposed to train transport. Both cause environmental disasters and I can't find any evidence that one is significantly safer than the other. Can you?
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:28 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Sandi wrote:This is why you build pipelines
No, this is why we should reduce dependence on fossil fuels.

I'd wager most people opposed to building pipelines are also opposed to train transport. Both cause environmental disasters and I can't find any evidence that one is significantly safer than the other. Can you?


I'm all for using non-fossil fuels. When we have them in the needed abundance to meet our needs, and at competitive prices, that will happen.

Until then we will, and should continue to use what meets our needs. That is fossil fuels.

BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby DCB » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:42 pm

Sandi wrote:BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.
Canada's Enbridge Inc prepared on Sunday to replace part of a pipeline that leaked more than 1,000 barrels of oil in a Wisconsin field, shutting down a key conduit from Canada and provoking fresh ire from Washington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/3 ... 17364.html
About two dozen homes in Mayflower, in central Arkansas, were evacuated Friday as the crude oil, which originated in Canada and was bound for Gulf Coast refineries, crawled through yards and down streets spilled from a 2- or 3-inch gash in the underground Pegasus pipeline, officials have said. The evacuation could last for several more days as crews work to clean the spill.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/us/arkans ... index.html

Texas:
"Before it was stopped, this leak caused an estimated 10 barrels of crude oil to spray into the air and subsequently impact some of the surrounding area, including one home."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/0 ... 28427.html
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:49 pm

DCB wrote:
Sandi wrote:BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.
I'm not either, which is why I asked if she had evidence to support her assumption that it was.

The environmental concerns about pipelines are no more baseless than those about train transport, as near as I can tell. Again, I don't have any hard facts, which is why I'm not making any particular claims. Sandi has made several, but has supplied no evidence. She says, "I'm all for using non-fossil fuels" but wants to continue with business as usual, which to non-biased observers means subsidizing the fossil fuel industry (which means non-fossil fuel prices cannot be competitive) and downplaying the environmental dangers inherent in fossil fuel usage, mining, and transportation.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:17 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Sandi has made several, but has supplied no evidence. She says, "I'm all for using non-fossil fuels" but wants to continue with business as usual, which to non-biased observers means subsidizing the fossil fuel industry (which means non-fossil fuel prices cannot be competitive) and downplaying the environmental dangers inherent in fossil fuel usage, mining, and transportation.


Do you have reading comprehension problems, or do you just say what you would like to think people believe.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:21 pm

Sandi wrote:Do you have reading comprehension problems, or do you just say what you would like to think people believe.
Please point out exactly where you think I mischaracterized your position. Then, please provide the evidence for your position that I've already asked you for.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:59 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Sandi wrote:Do you have reading comprehension problems, or do you just say what you would like to think people believe.
Please point out exactly where you think I mischaracterized your position. Then, please provide the evidence for your position that I've already asked you for.


You know already know, but for the sake of others I will let you play stupid. Show me where I said anything about continuing with business as usual.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby snoqueen » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:17 pm

Sandi wrote:BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.


That's what you wrote.

Then people joined in with pictures and stories of environmental damage done by the pipeline rupturing. It is your turn, and you are supposed to give evidence supporting your belief that the idea of environmental damage is baseless.

Sandi wrote:Show me where I said anything about continuing with business as usual.


I am not sure what you think "business as usual" means, but to me it sounds like using rail because extending the pipeline is presently stalled for environmental reasons.

You said the pipeline was many times safer than rail transport, which might indicate you think we should pursue pipeline transport and deprecate rail transport. That would be the opposite of "business as usual," wouldn't it?

As I said, it is your turn to give evidence the pipeline is safer. Otherwise those who tried to show how the pipeline is dangerous will prevail in this discussion. Giving no evidence to support your statements implies you cannot support them but instead you just made them up out of thin air.

As usual, I feel like I'm explaining things to a third grader, but you aren't getting the point of how people debate issues and offer evidence for their positions.

And we can agree non-carbon energy alternatives would help solve this whole problem, and we can agree a transitional period is needed if we are to make the transition.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:33 pm

snoqueen wrote:And we can agree non-carbon energy alternatives would help solve this whole problem, and we can agree a transitional period is needed if we are to make the transition.


Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately there are no "non-carbon energy alternative" that can supply more than a small fraction of our needs. Thus we need fossil fuels until we can make that happen.

Is that so hard to understand?
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby snoqueen » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:41 pm

Not hard at all.

You have not, however, explained or supported your earlier assertion, which I already quoted once:

BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.


Baseless means without foundation, unfounded. That's nor what I saw in the evidence presented above by others. I saw plenty of damage.

You either defend your position or you've lost another argument.

You might be able to support a statement like "both the pipeline and rail transport have environmental negatives," but that's not what you said. Do you want to reconsider?
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Sandi » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:27 pm

snoqueen wrote:Not hard at all.

You have not, however, explained or supported your earlier assertion, which I already quoted once:

BTW the pipeline is many times safer than rail transport. Almost all of the environmental reasons for not wanting the pipeline are baseless.


I will cede the "many times" and say "safer"


Linky

WASHINGTON — When it comes to transporting oil, pipelines are the safest option, trumping trains and trucks, according to a new report from Canada’s Fraser Institute.

The study is just the latest to make the safety case for greater reliance on pipelines, coming while the Obama administration weighs whether Keystone XL is in the national interest and even as Tesoro starts cleaning up a seven-acre oil spill in a North Dakota wheat field.

U.S. data on incidents from 2005 to 2009 “show that road and rail have higher rates of serious incidents, injuries and fatalities than pipelines, even though more road and rail incidents go unreported,” said the report authors,
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