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Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Detritus » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:34 pm

Got it--Meade doesn't care about American soldiers dying in Iraq. I thought so, but I had to check.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:56 am

Detritus wrote:Got it--Meade doesn't care about American soldiers dying in Iraq. I thought so, but I had to check.


What's more interesting is who Meade chooses to quote here. Kanan Makiya is an Iraqi expat, who left Iraq in the late 1960s to study architecture in the US, then had a career in academia. He gained UK citizenship in 1982. He's a "close friend" of con-man Ahmed Chalabi, and was a prominent supporter of the war from the start.

Before the war, Makiya was quoted as saying "As I told the President on January 10th, I think [the troops] will be greeted with sweets and flowers in the first months and simply have very, very little doubts that that is the case."

When the US first occupied Iraq, Makiya was brought in to Iraq to represent Bush's "Coalition Provisional Authority" to the Iraqis. After a few years in Iraq he returned to the US (this may in part have been due to health problems, not just the rising tide of violence).

Ordinary Iraqis who still live in Baghdad rather than in Boston are much more skeptical about the war's benefits. It's certainly been a disaster for Iraq's once-large Christian minority. Ordinary Shia and Sunni Arab Iraqis are also not convinced that their life is better. In fact, they mostly say that things are worse now than before the war:

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I think Kanan Makiya is basically a good guy. He justifiably hated Saddam Hussein and wanted Iraq to become a western-style, democratic society. I don't think his ideas about how to achieve that were particularly good. There's a lengthy bio of him here, if anyone wants to read it.

But ... it's not particularly remarkable that a prominent advocate of the Iraq war, and close buddy of Ahmed Chalabi, is latching on to the "Arab Spring" as a retroactive justification of the war.

What's more remarkable is that Meade would apparently believe that the "Arab Spring" justifies the war's cost to America (ultimately $6 trillion dollars or so, and thousands of American lives lost and many more ruined).

Is there no better way for the world's only superpower to promote freedom and democracy in the Mideast?

Meade apparently still supports the Iraq war (or, at least, he's unwilling to admit otherwise). That speaks volumes about his judgement, IMHO.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Meade » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:49 pm

I take Toni Morrison’s beliefs seriously. The serial and tragic mistakes of the Bush administration, and the naivete of people like me, make questioning the value of the invasion necessary. I thought that Iraq, with competent American help, could make the transition to at least semi-democracy, even after suffering such physical and psychological damage during the bleak years of Saddam’s reign. But those who believe the invasion was an act of insanity -- especially those who fashion themselves as advocates for human rights, dignity and liberation -- should at least ask Saddam’s many victims for their opinion on the matter before rendering final judgment.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-0 ... dberg.html
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Leroy Gates » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:12 am

"Iraq’s flood of ‘cheap oil’ could rock world markets
Nation hopes to exceed Saudi Arabia"


"“Iraq has a potential as a game-changer...”

"Even using conservative estimates, the IEA expects Iraq to more than double its current production to 6.1 million barrels a day by 2020 and 8.3 million by 2030, enabling the country to supply 45 percent of the increase in global oil demand by 2035. Within two decades, IEA analysts expect Iraq to surpass Russia to become the second-largest oil exporter.

Iraq is coming back on the scene just when demand for oil was poised to surge in a way that threatens to drive up oil and gasoline prices to destabilizing levels."

"Should Iraq fail to realize its potential, the world could face a future punctuated by oil crises, with prices skyrocketing as new sources of supply are unable to keep up with robustly growing demand."

"Iraq has the fourth-largest proven reserves in the world of 143 million barrels of crude, but “the country is only about 30 percent to 40 percent explored,” said Mr. Lando. “There’s a lot of opportunity to find more oil.”"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/3/iraqs-flood-of-cheap-oil-could-rock-world-markets-/?page=all
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Steve Vokers » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:13 am

Leroy Gates wrote:"Iraq’s flood of ‘cheap oil’ could rock world markets
Nation hopes to exceed Saudi Arabia"


"“Iraq has a potential as a game-changer...”


So you are saying it was worth 3,000 American lives and untold trillions of dollars so we can buy cheap gas?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Leroy Gates » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:27 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Iraq is coming back on the scene just when demand for oil was poised to surge in a way that threatens to drive up oil and gasoline prices to destabilizing levels."


In 2008 when oil prices "destabilized" we got the Great Global Recession, not a recipe for Peace.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby DCB » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:21 am

Steve Vokers wrote:
Leroy Gates wrote:"Iraq’s flood of ‘cheap oil’ could rock world markets
Nation hopes to exceed Saudi Arabia"


"“Iraq has a potential as a game-changer...”


So you are saying it was worth 3,000 American lives and untold trillions of dollars so we can buy cheap gas?

Once again, the hippies carrying the "No blood for oil!" signs were right.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby rabble » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:44 am

Leroy Gates wrote:
Leroy Gates wrote:Iraq is coming back on the scene just when demand for oil was poised to surge in a way that threatens to drive up oil and gasoline prices to destabilizing levels."


In 2008 when oil prices "destabilized" we got the Great Global Recession, not a recipe for Peace.

Yo, Leroy. Oil prices "destablized" because the one percenters tried to shift every dollar in the world into their pockets. It blew up in their face so we did what every red blooded patriot should do: shovel more money into their pockets.

One of the still-lingering aftereffects of that tactic was "destabilization" of the price of every fucking thing.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby snoqueen » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:32 am

In 2008 when oil prices "destabilized" we got the Great Global Recession, not a recipe for Peace.


Now you think it was because of gas prices?

It used to be because the government made us sell our houses to black people who couldn't pay the mortgages.

Make up yr mind.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Leroy Gates » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:19 am

Please show us where the "Global" recession was blamed on black people "because the government made us sell our houses to black people who couldn't pay the mortgages."

Do you think destabilizing oil prices leads to world peace? Ever cross your mind what Saddam might be up to these days if still in power? What part of the Saddam regime do you miss the most?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Detritus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:10 am

Leroy Gates wrote:
Leroy Gates wrote:Iraq is coming back on the scene just when demand for oil was poised to surge in a way that threatens to drive up oil and gasoline prices to destabilizing levels."


In 2008 when oil prices "destabilized" we got the Great Global Recession, not a recipe for Peace.

The idea that any single even has "destabilized" oil prices is insupportable--there have been fluctuations, sometimes large (eg. oil prices actually dropped by nearly 50% in 2008), but the general trend since the 1970s has been gradually but inexorably upward. See, for example, what a real economist has to say about the matter. Here's a quick preview in terms of US retail gas prices in chart form:

Image
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:39 am

Leroy Gates wrote:Ever cross your mind what Saddam might be up to these days if still in power? What part of the Saddam regime do you miss the most?

The Kurds are clearly better off than they were under Hussein. But large majorities of the rest of Iraq's population say conditions are worse now than before the US invasion:

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Perhaps you missed this comment up-thread.

So. Was it worth $6 trillion (the likely eventual total cost of the war) plus the lives of thousands of Americans and no one knows how many Iraqis, to get rid of Hussein but leave Iraq in what most people think is a worse mess than it was before?

If we can afford to blow all that money (even ignoring the lives) to make life better for a group of Kurds in northern Iraq, how about spending a few trillion on much more effective and broadly beneficial humanitarian causes?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:34 am

kurt_w wrote: Was it worth $6 trillion (the likely eventual total cost of the war) plus the lives of thousands of Americans and no one knows how many Iraqis...

No,no, no Kurt. The debate is restricted to the President's power to kill any American he chooses, not some filthy foreigner. Next "moral" issue? How many of the terrorists' severed heads can be displayed on the White House lawn on pikes at the same time?
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