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Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby jonnygothispen » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:55 pm

DCB wrote:
kurt_w wrote:Poor George Bush. Mean ol' Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright and John Kerry made him invade Iraq. It wasn't his fault!

Obviously Bush and his Merry Band of War Profiteers are the ones who should take full responsibility for their actions. They're the ones who manipulated CIA intelligence, they're the ones who sent Powell to that ridiculous UN meeting. The commander in chief pushed for a war based on bullshit. They should be on trial for war crimes instead of hanging out at think tanks or painting puppies.

But plenty of Democrats went along with it. They made the same stupid statements about fears about WMDs, when they knew full well they should have trusted the actual weapons inspectors. Not the scumbags leftover from the Nixon administration.
They did go along with it. A couple dozen intelligence officials spoke out anonymously pre-war (as reported by Reuters, Knight Ridder and I think AP in print articles) that the intelligence was highly manipulated, even "bullshit."

However, George Tenet also admitted during the congressional investigation in September 2006 that he "modified" his position at the request of White House policy makers: He stated pre-war that the BU$H info was correct, and then admitted during the inquiry that it was inconsistent with what he knew.

Likewise, Powell was given the same bogus "vetted by the CIA" treatment for the material in the UN speech.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Meade » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:17 pm

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... vis-hanson

from the comments:
If Bush had not decided to get rid of Saddam, of the people who are now convinced of their wisdom in opposing him or in changing their minds midstream, how many would now be beating themselves for their ignorance in not foreseeing how horrible an unrestrained, oil-rich, vengeance-seeking Saddam would be? Those blessed with 20/20 hindsight seem to think they are the pinnacle of evolution and that their narrow predictions of what might have been are the only possible ones. These are the people who laughed at Rumsfeld's unknown unkowns. Wise people look at what happened and try to learn from events. Idiots don't have to learn because they already know everything.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:22 pm

From the above cited article: "... the rapid victory in the war in Afghanistan immediately following 9/11."

Really?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby DCB » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:12 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:From the above cited article: "... the rapid victory in the war in Afghanistan immediately following 9/11."

Really?

Its the National Review. They're completely delusional. They refuse to be embarrassed for their role in promoting the war. Nothing they say about the Iraq war (or anything else, really) should be taken seriously.

Conor Friedersdorf wrote:Circa 2002, had a prominent anti-war protester said that America wanted to embark on a crusade of Christian conquest, designed to turn the Middle East into a cauldron, eliminate nation states on a whim, and start wars for no other reason that we need to kick someone around, he or she would've been widely condemned as a hyperbolic, hateful, America-hating moonbat.

Yet in National Review, writers were earnestly calling for all those things.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ts/273751/
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Meade » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:40 pm

DCB wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:From the above cited article: "... the rapid victory in the war in Afghanistan immediately following 9/11."

Really?

Its the National Review. They're completely delusional.

No no - I see what Hen V is getting at. If one comes from the point of view that ending the Taliban's rule equals not a victory but a defeat -- similar to those Americans who, 27 years earlier, welcomed the Viet Cong's victory as their own victory -- then, obviously, people like Hen would not see the defeat of the Taliban as a real "victory" and would be forced to pause and ask
Really?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby acereraser » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:26 pm

Meade wrote:
DCB wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:From the above cited article: "... the rapid victory in the war in Afghanistan immediately following 9/11."

Really?

Its the National Review. They're completely delusional.

No no - I see what Hen V is getting at. If one comes from the point of view that ending the Taliban's rule equals not a victory but a defeat -- similar to those Americans who, 27 years earlier, welcomed the Viet Cong's victory as their own victory -- then, obviously, people like Hen would not see the defeat of the Taliban as a real "victory" and would be forced to pause and ask
Really?


Do you really think the U.S. achieved a rapid victory in Afghanistan? Shouldn't the hostilities end before we can declare victory or loss?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Meade » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:08 pm

acereraser wrote:Do you really think the U.S. achieved a rapid victory in Afghanistan?

On October 7, and less than one month after the Twin Towers fell, the U.S., aided by the United Kingdom, Canada, and other countries including several from the NATO alliance, initiated military action, bombing Taliban and Al-Qaeda-related camps. The stated intent of military operations was to remove the Taliban from power, and prevent the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations. By November 13, the Taliban had withdrawn from both Kabul and Jalalabad. Finally, in early December, the Taliban gave up Kandahar, their last stronghold, dispersing without surrendering.


Yes, I'd call 5 weeks achieving a pretty rapid victory.

acereraser wrote:Shouldn't the hostilities end before we can declare victory or loss?

How long after May 8, 1945 did the hostilities end?
Did all hostilities end on April 9, 1865?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:43 pm

The NATO-led coalition said a data entry error led to a claim last week that Taliban attacks had fallen 7 percent last year. In fact, there's little change. So what did we get for the surge?


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchan ... -after-all

Taliban suicide bombers killed at least five policemen in Afghanistan's restive east on Tuesday, officials said, in a three-hour attack that coincided with a visit to the country by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... 5220130326

In a report presented to Pakistan’s Supreme Court on Tuesday, the ISI agency alleged President Hamid Karzai’s administration was in league with groups linked to the main Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan movement, known collectively as the TTS.
The report suggested the "recent nexus of TTS with Afghan government is likely to enhance the terrorist activities" in areas along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border such as Mohman, Bajaur, Dir, Swat and Chitral.


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... roups?lite

Wooohoooo! Success! :wink:
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:43 pm

Funny (funny strange, not funny haha) how some people protested the Vietnam War when they were young and draft eligible, but turn chickenhawk in their older years concerning Iraq/Afghanistan.

My best friend growing up was like that. So too Ted Nugent. And others.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby acereraser » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 pm

Meade wrote:
acereraser wrote:Do you really think the U.S. achieved a rapid victory in Afghanistan?

On October 7, and less than one month after the Twin Towers fell, the U.S., aided by the United Kingdom, Canada, and other countries including several from the NATO alliance, initiated military action, bombing Taliban and Al-Qaeda-related camps. The stated intent of military operations was to remove the Taliban from power, and prevent the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations. By November 13, the Taliban had withdrawn from both Kabul and Jalalabad. Finally, in early December, the Taliban gave up Kandahar, their last stronghold, dispersing without surrendering.


Yes, I'd call 5 weeks achieving a pretty rapid victory.


Here are the next few sentences from the wiki page you quoted above:

Before the summer 2006 offensive began, indications existed that soldiers in Afghanistan had lost influence and power to other groups, including potentially the Taliban. A notable sign was rioting in May after a street accident in the city of Kabul.

The continued support from tribal and other groups in Pakistan, the drug trade, and the small number of NATO forces, combined with the long history of resistance and isolation, indicated that Taliban forces and leaders were surviving.


I disagree with your assessment that the War in Afghanistan was over in five weeks. So did Rumsfeld, who waited until May 1, 2003 (Mission Accomplished Banner Day) to announce that major combat activity was over in Afghanistan. If you think that means victory was rightfully declared on that day, I disagree with your assessment again.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby DCB » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 pm

acereraser wrote: If you think that means victory was rightfully declared on that day, I disagree with your assessment again.

Also, you'd have to explain why American soldiers have continued fighting, and dying, for a decade after we "won".
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Meade » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:56 pm

acereraser wrote:I disagree with your assessment that the War in Afghanistan was over in five weeks. So did Rumsfeld, who waited until May 1, 2003 (Mission Accomplished Banner Day) to announce that major combat activity was over in Afghanistan. If you think that means victory was rightfully declared on that day, I disagree with your assessment again.

Driving out the Taliban and putting an end to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan was a rapid victory but it's fine with me if you disagree. What is your assessment? That the coalition rapidly lost?
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby fennel » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:28 pm

DCB wrote:
acereraser wrote: If you think that means victory was rightfully declared on that day, I disagree with your assessment again.

Also, you'd have to explain why American soldiers have continued fighting, and dying, for a decade after we "won".
Ayeh.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby acereraser » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:38 am

Meade wrote:What is your assessment? That the coalition rapidly lost?


To be succinct, I am refuting this partial sentence from the National Review article:

Since the U.S. had seemingly succeeded in two months where the Soviets had abjectly failed in a decade,


This is clearly not true, and we are in past a decade.
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:26 am

Moved to next page.
Last edited by kurt_w on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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