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Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby Bland » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:28 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Ms Vilas and I were married by Circuit Court Judge Richard Bardwell in 1976 in his chambers at the City/County Building. Does that mean our marriage isn't legal?
Just passing along info as it was explained to me by the judge. I didn't do any independent verification- I simply took him at his word. Plenty of explanations for the discrepancy ranging from laws have changed to the judge that married me was full of shit. That's why I used the word "apparently."
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby lukpac » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:36 pm

Back to Shocked...:

She's also lost the services of her publicist, booking agent, and now she's in a Twitter war, the San Francisco Examiner reported.

Apparently Shocked was pulled from an appearance in LA -- entitled "The Effects of Gay-Bashing on the LA Mayoral Race" -- but then announced she'd show up anyway.

The venue very emphatically told Shocked that she wasn't welcome, so the former Occupy LA activist posted "OK, OCCUPIE!!" on her Twitter feed.

No showdown occurred, however, as Shocked spent the evening at an event for homeless people, the newspaper reported.


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sh ... 54001.html

More here, including:

Shocked is only speaking with the media via Twitter, since her volunteer publicist walked off the job Thursday after less than 48 hours on duty. Shocked is believed to have been acting as her own booker on the scotched tour, despite contact info for a booking agent on her website. Until midweek, that same contact page also listed a publicist who had not worked with her for several years who said he had sent Shocked legal threats to get his name and phone number removed from her site.

Shocked also tweeted Friday that she plans to show up come what may at her May 4 gig in Madison, Wis. That’s the one show on her tour that hasn’t been canceled, apparently due to the club owner being on vacation and unreachable in Mexico. But a contact at the venue told local press, “There’s no doubt in my mind he’ll cancel this."
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:44 pm

penquin wrote:Thanks Kurt.

Welcome back. It's been a few years! Some old faces still around, some new ones.

And since there has already been a lot of confusion about what I was trying to communicate I'd like to clearly state that I'm not "anti-SSM" one bit, rather it just seems pretty obvious which way this issue is heading.

That's fine. I'm completely in favor of SSM, but I do think that the pace of change has been so fast that there are going to be some thorny legal issues that have to be worked out.

I understand that many folks honestly beleive nothing of the sort could never happen, but I'm astonished that some find the idea completely and totally unfathomable.

Back in October 2011, Nate Silver (of 538 fame) wrote a column on how often events that experts say would "never" happen actually do happen. It turns out that people are not really good at judging the likelihood of future social/political events.

I guess rather than saying that X will happen and Y won't happen, I'd lay it out like this:

(1) It seems very likely that in most states, once SSM is adopted, local officials will be required to provide marriage licenses to same-sex couples regardless of their personal beliefs.

(2) I have no idea where we'll end up on the question of whether private businesses, colleges, etc. are required to not discriminate between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages. I would not be surprised if nondiscrimination laws end up requiring businesses etc. to treat same-sex couples exactly the way they treat opposite-sex couples. On the other hand, I would also not be surprised if conservatives pushed for "freedom to discriminate" laws as part of a compromise to recognize same-sex marriage. (If you look at the discourse around, say, contraception, religious groups have been focused on using "religious freedom" arguments to exempt individuals and organizations from offering contraception).

This is the approach that some prominent social conservatives like Rod Dreher seem to be moving towards -- they recognize that stopping SSM entirely is a lost cause, so they're going to focus more on carving out exceptions and exemptions and limitations and whatnot.

(3) I don't think it's likely that clergy will be required to perform same-sex marriages, or that churches will be required to offer their core facilities for SSM ceremonies. As I think I mentioned up-thread, the closest we've come to this is that a Methodist association in New Jersey lost the tax-exempt status on a boardwalk pavilion that it owned, once it began refusing to allow same-sex commitment ceremonies in the pavilion. In that case, the pavilion was supposed to be freely available for the general public. I'd say it's highly unlikely that states would use non-discrimination laws to coerce churches into recognizing SSM, but I wouldn't say it's ...

Image.
Last edited by kurt_w on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:50 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Ms Vilas and I were married by Circuit Court Judge Richard Bardwell in 1976 in his chambers at the City/County Building. Does that mean our marriage isn't legal?


A couple of decades ago, I was a witness when a couple of friends were married by a judge in the City/County building. I don't recall exactly what room it was in, but it definitely was in a chambersy kind of space, not in the lobby.

So if they've stopped doing that now, it at least lasted well into the 1990s.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby Mean Scenester » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:55 pm

Whoa ...

It's just like that episode of Gilligan's Island where Thurston and Lovey Howell discover that the guy who married them was a fraud and that their marriage is a sham. Then Skipper tries to perform a marriage ceremony on a raft floating out in the lagoon but everything falls to pieces (literally) and madcap hilarity ensues.

I wish I could recall how that one worked out, Henry. I want to say the whole thing devolves into a deadly melee for possession of a conch shell, but I think I may be confusing the sitcom with Lord of the Flies. You and your wife probably aren't as fucked as all that.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:57 pm

lukpac wrote:The venue very emphatically told Shocked that she wasn't welcome, so the former Occupy LA activist posted "OK, OCCUPIE!!" on her Twitter feed.


That's actually kind of cute, in a pathetic sort of way.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:16 pm

Mean Scenester wrote:Whoa ...

It's just like that episode of Gilligan's Island where Thurston and Lovey Howell discover that the guy who married them was a fraud and that their marriage is a sham. Then Skipper tries to perform a marriage ceremony on a raft floating out in the lagoon but everything falls to pieces (literally) and madcap hilarity ensues.

I wish I could recall how that one worked out, Henry. I want to say the whole thing devolves into a deadly melee for possession of a conch shell, but I think I may be confusing the sitcom with Lord of the Flies. You and your wife probably aren't as fucked as all that.


Somewhat related:

Great Wedding! But Was It Legal? (NYT)

Apparently, that episode of Friends where Joey gets ordained over the internet and married two of the others (Monica and Chandler?) led to a profusion of people doing the same thing. And in some places it's not legal.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby snoqueen » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:48 pm

On the hopelessly-nonreligious side of my family are more than one Universal Life Church ministers (http://www.themonastery.org/ordination? ... MgodKjsAWA) who have performed actual marriages that, in their state (not Wisconsin), are regarded as legitimate. This has been going on for years and I've not heard of any backlash against either the ministers or their married couples.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby penquin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:35 pm

Meanwhile...

The Washington attorney general has filed a consumer protection action against an eastern Washington florist who refused to provide flowers for a same-sex wedding, telling a longtime customer that it was “because of my relationship with Jesus Christ.”

The lawsuit seeks $2,000 in fines for each violation and an injunction requiring Arlene’s Flowers to comply with the state’s consumer protection laws, which prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

“As Attorney General, it is my job to enforce the laws of the state of Washington,” Ferguson said. “If a business provides a product or service to opposite-sex couples for their wedding, then it must provide same-sex couples the same product or service.”

On Wednesday, the American Civil Liberties Union also stepped into the fray, sending Stutzman a letter announcing it would file a separate civil suit for damages on behalf of the engaged couple unless she agrees to provide flowers without discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, publish a letter of apology in the newspaper and donate $5,000 to a local youth center, in lieu of attorneys' fees.


Link


If a minister accepts money for performing a wedding ceremony, wouldn't that make it a business transaction? If so, then why should they be exempt from such a law?
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:14 pm

Ministers and religious institutions have been exempt from many laws and regulations because of the First Amendment. Why do you think that would change now?
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby penquin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:44 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Why do you think that would change now?


Why are you so sure it won't?

I know you say 'cause it is a First Amendment Right, but that constitutional right, as well as every other of the Bill of Rights ('cept the Third, eh? That one is still pretty solid) has been chiseled & whittled down already. Why do you think this particular issue is so infallible?

I don't think it will be the Baptist preacher that is prosecuted first...more likely an Elvis-type minister on the Vegas strip or a Craiglist-advertising officiant. But once that precedent is set, then the door is wide open.

And I ain't saying that means we shouldn't allow SSM....I'm still all in favor of it...but the writing on the wall is pretty clear 'bout what is gonna happen.
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Re: Michelle Shocked: God hates faggots

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:51 pm

penquin wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Why do you think that would change now?

It's against the law to discriminate against someone because of their marital status, such as being legally divorced. Yet Catholic priests refuse to marry anyone who is divorced. If the First Amendment protects those priests and the Roman Catholic Church, then why won't it if they refuse to marry a same sex couple?
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