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Guest Workers

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Guest Workers

Postby kurt_w » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:16 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: If you re-read and consider, you should quickly realize that's not what I'm suggesting.


OK. Why did you choose to juxtapose the two issues? What are you suggesting? (please be brief and direct, my attention span is wavering today.)

The past four decades, and especially the post-Clinton years, have been really rough for the middle class and working class.

Bludgeon wants to redirect people's entirely justifiable anger away from the rich and the powerful, and onto the poor, the nonwhite, and the immigrants.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:46 pm

Bludgeon wrote: here are these dual tragedies, perhaps equally valid; but only one of these amounts to a priority for progressives.

I don't know where you get this impression. Support for immigrants from the left has been pretty tepid, actually. The Democratic party has been divided. The progressive pundits I listen to have been beating the drums about the loss of middle class jobs for 20 years.

I think you and "the one" are overly sensitive about racist accusations. Actually, it's not just you two, whenever I discuss immigration with conservatives, they immediately jump through the roof when I suggest there is a cultural component involved. I suppose the racism charge is out there, with some degree of validity, and it overheated the debate.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:50 pm

kurt_w wrote: Bludgeon wants to redirect people's entirely justifiable anger away from the rich and the powerful, and onto the poor, the nonwhite, and the immigrants.


I don't know that this is Bludgeon's intention, but it has been the choir book of the right for the last 20 or 50 years.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:16 pm

Another comparison for you:

kurt_w wrote:"The past four decades, have been... great hardship for the people of France... and these Royalists want to... direct our attention way... from the king... his wife... and ALL those who hold moneys... with nice possessions... Well! Tell me... children of the Revolution... What do we think... of this!"

Image

Simmer down, crowd... simmer down.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby snoqueen » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Bludgeon wrote: What if a hard working family that falls from the middle class into poverty after decades of hard work and doing everything right, is just as much of a catastrophe as the Mexican immigrant who doesn't get to be a citizen? What if these things are important too, but your obsession with the one distorts your perspective of the other?


Are you suggesting that 12M immigrants in a country of 350M are to blame for the loss of middle class jobs? How many of those 12M do you figure have well paying jobs?


Bludge again wrote:If you re-read and consider, you should quickly realize that's not what I'm suggesting.


I agree with you that the collapse of the middle class is very hard on a lot of people. The reason immigrants were getting a lot of attention in this topic might have to do with the fact it was titled "Guest Workers."

Two questions, related:

1)If the immigrants did not take away all these good-paying jobs, then what ARE you suggesting?

2) How do you feel about labor unions? They built the middle class, as much as any other factor, by demanding good wages, reasonable hours, a work week and a weekend, and benefits enough to keep those middle class people afloat. What should replace them, or replace their effectiveness in helping keep a middle class in this country?

You're really good at getting irate about other people's theories, so it's time you stated your own. Otherwise people might start to think you're just here to spew invective against liberals.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby DCB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:57 pm

snoqueen wrote: Otherwise people might start to think you're just here to spew invective against liberals.

well, not just that. Also, derailing threads.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:03 am

DCB wrote:
snoqueen wrote: Otherwise people might start to think you're just here to spew invective against liberals.

well, not just that. Also, derailing threads.

Y'know Stebben was the one who seriously derailed the thread as he admits with his wacky prom article. However, my reflection is that the wide variety of topics this subject of amnesty lends itself to - the fall of the middle class (as a related topic), the state of the economy, affirmative action, - is testament to the fact that amnesty has to do with a lot more than just immigration. It does no good to even the immigrants to pretend that nothing but their ability to be corralled up and guilt tripped into voting for Democrats is at stake.

Still, even most conservatives are for some bit of amnesty for nearly all those who are already here. Much as they make a big display to the contrary, it's Democrats holding up the amnesty bill by insisting on leaky borders.

Apparently, if the border isn't so leaky and guarded by so many blind eyes that we have the same problem every election or two, the entire affair and all these 12M people mean nothing to progressives. Now that's racist.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:04 am

It does no good to even the immigrants to pretend that nothing but their ability to be corralled up and guilt tripped into voting for Democrats is at stake.


Oh, I see. This is about more ways to win elections, now that gerrymandering and voter ID are tapped out and the Rs have decided under no conditions will they actually adjust their policies toward what citizens of the 21st century want.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:26 am

snoqueen wrote:
It does no good to even the immigrants to pretend that nothing but their ability to be corralled up and guilt tripped into voting for Democrats is at stake.


Oh, I see. This is about more ways to win elections, now that gerrymandering and voter ID are tapped out and the Rs have decided under no conditions will they actually adjust their policies toward what citizens of the 21st century want.

Your basic comprehension skills disappoint me in 2013, snow. I've regretfully realized that context clues have been surrendered as a lost cause by teachers to their students all across the country (hence the footnotes in any newly printed book); but I had not realized they'd found a way to drum them out of even practiced readers' heads.

21st century? It's a sad moment for humanity, not at all the enlightened triumph of evolution progs would have you believe. Literacy standards are basically slipping back to the gods-forsaken middle ages; when the economy crumbles, everything crumbles; even peoples' ability to engage in a full spectrum of discourse.

Apparently talking politics today boils down to "my side says this" vs. "my side says that." Both sides seem unready to address any statement that doesn't have a ready counterpoint to respond with.

Is this how talking works now? All our ideas are just the table fodder of our betters, and our version of talking is to reach up for crumbs to throw at the primates we're engaged against?

You just go snatching for something recognizable; its sad. People used to talk.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Mean Scenester » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:01 am

Bludgeon wrote:I've regretfully realized that context clues have been surrendered as a lost cause by teachers to their students all across the country (hence the footnotes in any newly printed book); but I had not realized they'd found a way to drum them out of even practiced readers' heads.

As the husband of a teacher and the father of two young children learning to read, I'm here to tell you that you're brimming with horseshit.

That, I'm sure, will come as a great revelation to those Forons still intent on batting you around like a dead shrew because there's presumably no more interesting prey at hand.

p.s. For years, it was conservative doofballs championing one-size-fits-all phonics instruction at the expense of whole-language curricula who posed the greatest threat to students' abilities to decode contextual clues, but don't let reality trump your rabid drool session there, Gramps.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:21 am

Mean Scenester wrote: As the husband of a teacher and the father of two young children learning to read, I'm here to tell you that you're brimming with horseshit.


Do you ever post anything other than childish, personal insults?


Man, this thread has turned into quite the mensa meeting.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby rabble » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:24 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Mean Scenester wrote: As the husband of a teacher and the father of two young children learning to read, I'm here to tell you that you're brimming with horseshit.


Do you ever post anything other than childish, personal insults?

Yeah, he does. I've seen him do it. But it's always been in response to people who weren't childish.

And we left Mensa behind when you started treating Bludgie as if he had something to say.
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby DCB » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Bludgeon wrote:....
It does no good to even the immigrants to pretend that nothing but their ability to be corralled up and guilt tripped into voting for Democrats is at stake.
....
Still, even most conservatives are for some bit of amnesty for nearly all those who are already here. Much as they make a big display to the contrary, it's Democrats holding up the amnesty bill by insisting on leaky borders.
...
21st century? It's a sad moment for humanity, not at all the enlightened triumph of evolution progs would have you believe.


"Your side is stupid and evil", followed (of course) by:
Bludgeon wrote:Apparently talking politics today boils down to "my side says this" vs. "my side says that."


You do realize that the only reason there is any kind of immigration bill in play is because Republicans are desperate to get some Latino votes, right?
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Leroy Gates » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:11 pm

"AP will no longer use the term "illegal aliens" from now on they will be referred to as "undocumented Democrats."
Jay Leno
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Re: Guest Workers

Postby Huckleby » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:33 pm

Leroy Gates wrote:"AP will no longer use the term "illegal aliens" from now on they will be referred to as "undocumented Democrats."
Jay Leno


I like that, much more dignified
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