MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Saturday, January 31, 2015 |  Madison, WI: 34.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

Obamacare hiccup

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:09 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
wack wack wrote:No calculation is needed to know


Of course not.

It never is with you, is it?

John Henry


Do I need to do calculations on the chance that the sun will not rise tomorrow, too? The ability of Walmart employees to buy a controlling share of the company enjoys comparable probability.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:19 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
So perhaps you can explain what you have in mind here?

John Henry


What I have in mind is that your previous statement:

johnfajardohenry wrote:So if Winco is such a good model, Stebben, why would you not advise Walmart, or McD employees to follow it?


Was not a practical suggestion. And you've helped make that point.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:51 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:Isn't a co-op owned by the employees?

Some are. They are called collectives. Such as Union Cab in Madison. But most are not. They are owned by their members, such as the UW Credit Union.

Woodman's and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel are employee owned, but not all have equal shares. And some employees have no ownership.


Quite right, Henry. There are various types of cooperatives. Another is a producer coop such as Ocean Spray, Sunkist or others.

I think it was clear from the context that what Wack-Wack was talking about was employee ownership of Walmart since none of the other coop forms make any sense to this discussion.

Generally, when businesses are employee owned, they are just called "businesses" or perhaps "Employee owned businesses"

I was curious how Walmart would look or work as a coop and how the employees would get to be owners without actually paying for anything.

I did leave out a third option. The Walmart employees could get the govt to take the company away from the shareholders (including the Waltons) by force.

That reverts back to a gift though because I think WackWack would expect the govt to give it to the employees, no?

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:57 pm

wack wack wrote:
Do I need to do calculations on the chance that the sun will not rise tomorrow, too? The ability of Walmart employees to buy a controlling share of the company enjoys comparable probability.


Really?

I did the calculation this morning. It took about 90 seconds. Including the time it took to look up the market cap, last year's profit and the number of employees.

I know Barbie says "Math is hard" but this is just barely arithmetic. C'mon. You can do it.

If you could get all the employees to agree to do it, financially it doesn't look that bad. Even for $10/hr employees.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:20 pm

penquin wrote:Act 10 made it illegal for some UW Hospital workers to unionize, and I'm pretty sure they aren't considered gov't workers.


I don't know the specifics of either Law 10 or the UW Hospital but if the hospital employees are not considered govt employees, they are employees of a private entity. As such, they should be covered by the National Labor Relations Act which gives them the right to unionize.

I do not understand how a state law can override federal law if this is what is happening.

OTOH, if they are govt employees, they have no rights whatever under the NLRA. Govt employees are excluded from NLRA.

I'd be happy to hear it, 'cause it never made sense to me that it should be legal for me to collectively bargain with one employer but illegal for another.


Basically there is a conflict of interest. Unions are blackmailing politicians into giving them more money. Politicians are buying votes with taxpayer money.

Isn't that what the whole Scott Walker recall kerfuffel a couple years back was about? Teachers wanted more money/benefits and threatened to oust pols who didn't give them more. Happily for WI taxpayers, it turned out that the teachers were not as powerful as they thought.

Little background: I'm a member of a local craft union, and many of us...myself included...are employed by both the private & public sectors throughout the year. Our work can be kinda dangerous at times, and most of our contract language deals with safety issues & workplace practices that are not covered under current laws/regulations.


Workplace safety is one of the great things that unions do. Unions got us OSHA which, for all its problems and occasional silliness, does a fairly good job.

When you work for the govt are you an "employee", in the legal sense of the word, of the government? Or are you an independent contractor (self-employed) or an employee of another contractor?

Since i know nothing about what is happening in this case, including who the "employer" is, I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

I would say that it sounds like it might be more of a union problem than a govt problem though. I assume nobody is forcing you to take the job. If you don't like the pay and conditions, don't take it. If the union felt strongly about it, they could advise, maybe even forbid, their members from taking these jobs.

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby snoqueen » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:38 pm

Believe it or not, you actually CAN buy one share of Walmart on this web page. You can even get a stock certificate, which is totally anachronistic:

https://www.oneshare.com/stock/walmart

Yesterday they closed at $73.32, though by time you click the link that may have updated.

How many shares are outstanding?

3.28 billion

http://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/W ... utstanding

Trouble is, we don't know how many of those shares are family-held and not for sale. In any case, you would need to own more than half of them to control the company. Half of 3.28 billion is 1.64 billion shares.

How many employees does Walmart have in the US?

Here's a number from 2010. I can't tell if it's full- and part-timers or FTE or what, but let's go with it:

1.4 million US employees, about 1% of the US workforce

http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-employees-pay

From the same article, their average pay in 2010 was $11.75/hr. I can't imagine it's gone up a lot. The article points out this is about $20,744/year.

Anyhoo, you have 1.4 million employees, and you need 1.64 billion shares purchased (assuming those shares all voted as a block, which is unlikely). For the employees to gain a controlling interest in Walmart each employee would need to buy 1171 shares.

(Somebody please check my decimal places on that one.)

Each share costs $73 or thereabouts, so each employee needs to come up with more than $85K.

Now get real. The employees are not buying a controlling share of that company any time soon. No wonder JFH didn't post his findings, if he actually found anything.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11961
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Sandi » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:42 pm

Snoqueen, it is a wasted effort on your part. Walmart does not, and will never offer enough stocks in any market to threaten the owners lock on the company.
Sandi
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby snoqueen » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:48 pm

Trouble is, we don't know how many of those shares are family-held and not for sale. In any case, you would need to own more than half of them to control the company. Half of 3.28 billion is 1.64 billion shares.


What I said.

They're pretty much family-held and I agree, it's unlikely more than half the shares would be available anytime soon, even if all the Walmart employees came up with more than $80K apiece.

As you were.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11961
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:11 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Really?

I did the calculation this morning. It took about 90 seconds. Including the time it took to look up the market cap, last year's profit and the number of employees.

I know Barbie says "Math is hard" but this is just barely arithmetic. C'mon. You can do it.

If you could get all the employees to agree to do it, financially it doesn't look that bad. Even for $10/hr employees.

John Henry


So let's review:

wack wack wrote:Do I need to do calculations on the chance that the sun will not rise tomorrow, too? The ability of Walmart employees to buy a controlling share of the company enjoys comparable probability.


This had nothing to do with math being hard, and everything to do with the fact that suggesting Walmart employees could take ownership through stock purchase is impossible. Even less likely than the sun not coming up tomorrow, in fact.

Let's see your numbers! Since you did the numbers, show them. Show us that I am wrong. Show us that Walmart employees could conceivably band together to buy Walmart.

Let's see them, John. Let's see what "doesn't look that bad" looks like to you. Show me that the stats you gathered and numbers you calculated; show me that the I was just too lazy or stupid to do the math, and if I would've taken the time I would've discovered that it is conceivable for Walmart employees to their company.

Otherwise, despite your smugness, I'm still correct and you are still wrong.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:17 am

According to Sno's numbers, John Henry, each Walmart employee needs to come up with $85k to take control of the company.

Did you come up with similar numbers, John?

If so, I want to live where you live. Anywhere that $85k is "not that bad" must be better than here.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:26 am

snoqueen wrote:Trouble is, we don't know how many of those shares are family-held and not for sale. In any case, you would need to own more than half of them to control the company. Half of 3.28 billion is 1.64 billion shares.


1.6 billion(48.8%) of its shares are available to acquire(Under "Share Statistics," this is referred to as the "float.")
O.J.
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:44 am

snoqueen wrote:Believe it or not, you actually CAN buy one share of Walmart on this web page. You can even get a stock certificate, which is totally anachronistic:


Newsflash!

You can actually buy one share of ANY company that is publicly traded. Shocker, huh?

And I think you can get the paper certificates if you want them, though why anyone would is a puzzler to me. They do look nice and some people do collect old stock certificates as art.

I have a certificate for a single share of International Paper kicking around in a desk drawer somewhere. My father bought it back in the 40's and gave it to me in the 60s. I get a check, usually for less than $1 4 times a year.
Trouble is, we don't know how many of those shares are family-held and not for sale.


"We"?

I know how many of those share belong to the Waltons because it takes 10 seconds to do a search. 47%

That means that 53% can be purchased by anyone and the family has no say whatever. If someone or a group purchased 53%, they could name all, or at least a majority (depending on bylaws) of the directors and have absolute control over the company.

Now get real. The employees are not buying a controlling share of that company any time soon. No wonder JFH didn't post his findings, if he actually found anything.


JH didn't post his findings because I was curious to see if anyone else would take the time to actually look for facts rather than just blowing smoke and suppositions.

Congrats, Sno. Not that hard, is it?

I actually came up with a higher number but we are still in the same ballpark.

I came up with about $113,000 per employee using the market cap and employee figures at Yahoo Finance.

I also took it a bit further and figured profit per employee. After tax, it was about $8,000 in 2012.

If the employees took it as wages and benefits (pre-tax) it would probably be more like $11-13,000 to each.

There are also some other tax advantages to an employee buy out so it might even be a bit more.

So I stand by everything I've said.

So how much money did the Winco employees have to pay to buy that company? How could they possibly have afforded it? Maybe the owners just gave it to them. Right?

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:52 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
So I stand by everything I've said.

John Henry


Yes, you do. You've been proven wrong every which way, with numbers, even Sandi knows it, and still you stand by everything you said.

No one can say you're not proud, John Henry.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3194
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:52 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:That means that 53% can be purchased by anyone
John Henry


No, it doesn't. Less than half of the company's shares are available to purchase on the open market.
O.J.
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:57 am

The paper and technology company known as Appleton, which employees bought from foreign owners five years ago for $810 million...


They seem to have had about 1800 employees at the time.

That would make the buyout cost $450,000 per employee.

I wonder where they came up with the money?

John Henry
johnfajardohenry
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm

PreviousNext

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar