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Kicking the Addiction

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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Meade » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:35 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:The thing with addiction is that quitting isn't just about wanting to quit.


Okay. So how many substances are truly "addictive"? I'll define addictive as creating a need to increase the dose in order to get the same desired effect of obliterating life and health.
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Ethanol

Use of any other substance can be quit by any adult who wants to quit simply by quitting.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby rabble » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:51 pm

About ten years ago my wife asked me to switch to American Spirit. They advertise "no additives" and she figured when I finally got around to quitting, I'd only be withdrawing from tobacco. The cost of a pack of those things was also a factor in getting me to cut down.

A month or so after I switched, there weren't any of those in the rack so I bought my old brand and got sick. Literally, I got nauseous and felt horrible. Tried to finish the pack anyway but ended up throwing them away when I found some AS yellows at the next store.

I am firmly of the opinion that she was right. I think it was easier to quit American Spirit. That and the lozenges and the crew at the UW study.

Never tried ecigs but my niece and her boyfriend use them.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:52 pm

Meade wrote:I'll define addictive as creating a need to increase the dose in order to get the same desired effect of obliterating life and health.


Alcohol. Not on your list.

Also, your list is an idiotic simplification of addiction. Thanks Meade the moderate medic.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby rabble » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:00 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Also, your list is an idiotic simplification of addiction. Thanks Meade the moderate medic.

Yeah. If we're listing all substances that need a larger and larger dose to achieve the same effect, might as well add sugar, caffeine, jogging, posting on internet forums, and sex. And a few thousand other things.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Meade » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:12 pm

Maybe sugar. Maybe. But I would not count substances and behaviors which lead to success and happiness - caffeine, jogging, posting on internet forums, and sex - as addictive. That would be defining down the pathology of the word addictive.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby rabble » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:16 pm

Oh, the expertness just spurts outa that guy.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Meade » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:18 pm

I know. It's like you're addicted to it.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:16 pm

Let's use actual clinical definitions here, not made-up stuff.

http://www.alcoholanddrugabuse.com/article1.html

That's a short discussion of the term addiction from several different angles including the DSM-IV. They include the possibility the whole thing is biochemical/neurochemical and not just a bad habit:

Other definitions of addiction include those that are based strictly on biological, biochemical, or neurochemical presuppositions. They require evidence of a genetic predisposition to addiction coupled with a biochemical or neurochemical "error" or "malfunction" in the brain. These conceptualizations of addiction may well prove to be definitive. Time will tell.


That's my own take, based on nothing but years of observation -- some people have a strong biological, even genetic, tendency to get addicted (to lots of things, not just nicotine) and others simply do not, or have only a weak tendency (which seems to run in families, for what little that's worth.) For this reason I think it's pointless and mean to lecture tobacco addicts. Something else is going on beyond just poor judgment.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby doppel » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:41 pm

Meade wrote:
Okay. So how many substances are truly "addictive"? I'll define addictive as creating a need to increase the dose in order to get the same desired effect of obliterating life and health.
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Ethanol

Use of any other substance can be quit by any adult who wants to quit simply by quitting.

I got to go with the crowd here. Your just blowing it out your ass. Jerking people's chains, just because you can. Feeling big by making others feel small. I'm sure glad I wasn't your little brother.

You claim to have never used any of these substances, yet you know which ones are addictive. Your personal definition of addiction is insane at best-"the same desired effect of obliterating life and health" I don't know anything about heroin except for watching others, but I consider it extremely addictive and destructive. Cocaine and ethanol use can be ended overnight. Cigarettes and nicotine are considered by some healthcare professionals to be as addictive as heroin. I believe it.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Sandi » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:39 am

Meade wrote:Okay. So how many substances are truly "addictive"? I'll define addictive as creating a need to increase the dose in order to get the same desired effect of obliterating life and health.
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Ethanol

Use of any other substance can be quit by any adult who wants to quit simply by quitting.


Sorry Meade, but you are incorrect.


From cdc.gov:

Physical influences. Nicotine is just as addictive as heroin and cocaine. Because teens are sensitive to nicotine, they can feel dependent on tobacco sooner than adults.


It looks like nicotine is right up there at the top of the list.
Apparently you are not, and never have been a smoker.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Meade » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:39 am

Obviously there are many definitions of addiction to choose from. I prefer one that is more narrow, snoqueen apparently prefers one that appeals to authority and academic credentials, and Sandi goes with one provided by a federal government agency. Okay.

I don't think nicotine is the problem. The delivery system is the problem. You want the beneficial effects of nicotine - use the patch, the gum, the lozenge, or the e-cig. Smoking, dipping, and chewing tobacco are all predictably bad for your health and those are the behaviors that are "addictive". You might be one of the lucky few who smoke and live to be 100 without any ill effects, but statistics are not on your side. Maybe you're "psychologically addicted" to playing a kind of Russian roulette with your health.

Most adults who are addicted to smoking tobacco started smoking in their youth. If you could go back in time and talk to that younger you, how would you advise her?
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby rabble » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:44 am

Apparently you are not, and never have been a smoker.


Which for Meade is a good thing since he displays many traits associated with addictive personalities.

Back in the 70's I did a short stint as a hot line counselor. One of those volunteer phone things for people on the brink of whatever. There was two weeks of night courses before you passed. Most of it was addiction, dependencies, common drugs, common abusive/dependent behaviors, techniques to use or avoid in which situations, etc.

Also had a couple friends go into AA counseling after they got out of rehab. Meade is very lucky to have found addictions that are accepted in today's society plus a partner who funds them.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Meade » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:49 am

Why was your stint short?
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:49 am

What really sucks here is that there is no longer any real hope of this discussion providing Sandi, me, or anyone else who seeks to quit smoking with any real help at this point, as Meade has once again derailed a worthwhile thread by making it all about Meade. Meade doesn't give a fuck about people who suffer from addiction, he just used this thread as an opportunity to point out that he feels superior to such people. Fuck Meade. He adds nothing to this (or, really, any) discussion. I was enjoying the support others were providing for my struggle and Meade just shit all over it. I repeat: this sucks, and it really sucks that everyone who responded to his bullshit helped him do it. Shame on Meade. As for the rest of you, we've discussed this before: just stop responding to Meade's bullshit, please. If everyone had just ignored his initial, insulting, uncaring post, perhaps the actual discussion could have continued, instead of devolving into yet another worthless Meade-centric wasteland.
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Re: Kicking the Addiction

Postby Galoot » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:19 am

And if seeing his posts makes it irresistible to respond, then use the ignore function. It works quite well, and I sort of assumed that everybody had ignored him after he shit all over several earlier threads.

I'm quitting myself, actually. It might surprise the few of you who know me IRL, but I went from smoking a few clove cigarettes a few times a year, from college days up until about 10 years ago, to smoking Swisher Sweets, to occasionally having one of my brother's cigs when I was around him. Then he came to live with me, and when he went down to the basement for a smoke break, I'd join him. It wasn't more than half a pack a day, and usually a lot less.

And I really did enjoy it. I read through a few stop-smoking books, and one of them that is really popular was all about convincing me that I really didn't like smoking. But I did like it. The only part I don't like is that I have no wind anymore, and my blood pressure is quite high.

So after spending a wonderful month in California at my sister's house, going on the back porch and smoking when she did, I'm treating the return to Brazil as "time to quit that shit". I really do enjoy running, and I can't enjoy it if I have no wind. I'd also like to do some snorkeling and spearfishing, and right now I would have no chance. 15 years ago I could easily free dive to 30 feet and hang out at that depth for a minute or so.

I bought two boxes of patches, but as I suspected, the damn things don't work down here. I'm sweating so much, the patches just don't stick. That was a waste of $50 or so...
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