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Monday, September 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 70.0° F  A Few Clouds
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The Mayor's "Race"

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Could Ray Allen solve Allied Drive and other racial problems better than Mayor Dave?

Yes
7
26%
No
15
56%
Maybe
2
7%
This is really racist!
3
11%
 
Total votes : 27

The Mayor's "Race"

Postby Genie » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:49 am

I grew up in Madison and saw a lot of racism.

I went to an all-white, mostly blonde, elementary school - Hoyt. There was University housing in the area so we would get children of international students. There was a Nigerian girl who was very dark skinned. The kids in my class were really mean to her. They picked on her and called her names. She left afer a few weeks.

Central High was still in existence when I went to West. They closed it when I was in 9th grade and sent half the kids to West and half to East. This raised the population of black students and also caused a lot of racial tensions and subsequent fights at West. At East they had even worse problems - outright rumbles.

Gene Parks was elected to the City Council in District 5 when I was in high school. He was very eloquent and intelligent. In 1973 he and Paul Soglin had an agreement that one of them would run for mayor. There was miscommunication and Paul ended up running but Gene was angry and felt he was stabbed in the back.

The point of all this is that it is possible that Gene Parks might have been elected mayor in 1973 if he had run instead of Paul Soglin. Or not, because of the outright racism at the time.

Now we have another chance to elect a black mayor - Ray Allen. Maybe race shouldn't be a deciding factor. But with all the problems our city has with Allied Drive and the Hip Hop dances and other things that have to do with race, maybe we need someone who knows the people involved with these issues. Maybe we need a black mayor to solve these problems.
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Postby Dulouz » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:43 am

Well, Margaret Thatcher certainly proved that women are kinder and gentler rulers than their male counterparts. :roll:

Seriously, you are missing the class/race element of America. A rich black man will vote with rich white men over poor black men and women every time. In fact, the whole history of the US is based on the premise that blacks will sell out their brothers and sisters to move up the chain while working class whites will ignore class allegiance because of their unnatural fear of "race" even if it means the boss wins.

Madison is certainly a racist town, but a rich, conservative politician who caters to the powerful and wealthy will do little to change the status quo regardless of the color of their skin.
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Postby Genie » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:01 am

Dulouz wrote:Well, Margaret Thatcher certainly proved that women are kinder and gentler rulers than their male counterparts. :roll:

Seriously, you are missing the class/race element of America. A rich black man will vote with rich white men over poor black men and women every time. In fact, the whole history of the US is based on the premise that blacks will sell out their brothers and sisters to move up the chain while working class whites will ignore class allegiance because of their unnatural fear of "race" even if it means the boss wins.

Madison is certainly a racist town, but a rich, conservative politician who caters to the powerful and wealthy will do little to change the status quo regardless of the color of their skin.


Margaret Thatcher is hardly the woman ruler I would pick to represent all women rulers. Maybe Golda Meir, Evita Peron or Indira Gandhi? (Amazing how many other countries have elected women to run their countries - even muslim ones.)

And having a mayor who lived on the Polish end of what is called "the longest bridge in the world" - the 16th street viaduct ( which is said to run between Poland and Africa) - has not done much to help things. Milwaukee is one of the most segregated and racist cities in the country.

Are you saying Mayor Dave doesn't cater to the wealthy? Look at his supporter list - there are a few wealthy people there. But if his proposals were all to be adopted, many people in Madison would become poor because of the sharp increase in taxes.
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Postby gargantua » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:31 am

Anyone who can actually be elected will to some extent cater to the wealthy. You might not think so, but as a practical matter you do not want all the wealthy people to flee your city.

Speaking as someone who actually did this...I voted for Gene Parks when he did run for mayor. I will not vote for Ray Allen, for reasons that have nothing to do with race.
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Postby Dulouz » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:58 pm

Genie wrote:Are you saying Mayor Dave doesn't cater to the wealthy? Look at his supporter list - there are a few wealthy people there. But if his proposals were all to be adopted, many people in Madison would become poor because of the sharp increase in taxes.


Nice strawman. Your OP focused on whether Ray Allen would be better because he is black. My response focused only on that, it made no judgement about Cieslewicz.


I am sure that the muslims and sikhs in India and the palestinians would disagree with you regarding Meir and Ghandi (who was assasinated btw). Evita never "ran" the country.

The real fallacy in your thinking is that you presume that the problems on Allied will be solved in a "top-down" approach. It can only be solved by the residents working together and finding their own solutions.


The basi
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Postby Genie » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:10 am

Dulouz wrote:
Genie wrote:Are you saying Mayor Dave doesn't cater to the wealthy? Look at his supporter list - there are a few wealthy people there. But if his proposals were all to be adopted, many people in Madison would become poor because of the sharp increase in taxes.


Nice strawman. Your OP focused on whether Ray Allen would be better because he is black. My response focused only on that, it made no judgement about Cieslewicz.


Well, the premise is whether Allen would be better than Dave because of his race. If you read The Madison Times (which Allen now owns and edits), it certainly does not take the upper class rich point of view. It has Ron Daniels and other progressive columnists. More importantly, it has stories about the black neighborhoods from a positive perspective, as opposed to the negative perspective usually seen in the main newspapers.

Dolouz wrote:I am sure that the muslims and sikhs in India and the palestinians would disagree with you regarding Meir and Ghandi (who was assasinated btw). Evita never "ran" the country.


They would disagree with me that they were women leaders? :?

Dolouz wrote:The real fallacy in your thinking is that you presume that the problems on Allied will be solved in a "top-down" approach. It can only be solved by the residents working together and finding their own solutions.


They are trying to do that aren't they? But it helps when the city is behind them.

There is a real problem because there is such segregation in this city. Of course Mayor Dave came from a much more segregated city - Milwaukee - so he may think this is normal. But a black mayor would know what it is like to be on the outside looking in. He would have ideas on what to do because of this.

My neighborhood - the Vilas neighborhood - has no blacks living here. Last year some of my neighbors became very fearful when a car broke down in our alley and the occupants were black. This was during a football game when there were dozens of cars parked in my neighbors' backyards. All these cars belong to white owners. So when this one car broke down, my neighbors assumed it was a ruse and that these guys just intended to rob our houses if we didn't keep an eye on them. It wasn't a ruse, these guys left as soon as the problem was taken care of. But I found out what racists my neighbors were. And this would be no different in many of the white neighborhoods in Madison.
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Postby skrattypants » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:27 am

if you're operating under the premise that elected officials will protect their own, you're ignoring the time-honored standard of political acquiescence.
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Postby Dulouz » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:16 pm

Genie wrote:Well, the premise is whether Allen would be better than Dave because of his race. If you read The Madison Times (which Allen now owns and edits), it certainly does not take the upper class rich point of view. It has Ron Daniels and other progressive columnists. More importantly, it has stories about the black neighborhoods from a positive perspective, as opposed to the negative perspective usually seen in the main newspapers.

Dolouz wrote:I am sure that the muslims and sikhs in India and the palestinians would disagree with you regarding Meir and Ghandi (who was assasinated btw). Evita never "ran" the country.


They would disagree with me that they were women leaders? :?


Please try to keep up. I suggest that Thatcher wasn't exactly fitting the stereotype of women leaders being kinder and gentler to play off of your stereotype that black politicians will automatically be responsive to the needs of the poor, especially poor people of color.
Ghandi and her party engaged in brutal repression of the sikhs as well as the muslim minority. Meier perpetuated the apartheid state of Israel and, while not as bloody as other Israeli PM, did nothing to change the inequitable and immoral basis for her power namely the suppression of palestianian people and their culture.

Genie wrote:They are trying to do that aren't they? But it helps when the city is behind them.

There is a real problem because there is such segregation in this city. Of course Mayor Dave came from a much more segregated city - Milwaukee - so he may think this is normal. But a black mayor would know what it is like to be on the outside looking in. He would have ideas on what to do because of this.
why? Because he is black? Or did he grow up poor? Do you think that Colin Powell had more in common with the black privates from the inner city or the white cadets from West Point?

As the Russian Solzenithzyn wrote, "A man who is warm will never understand a man who is freezing."
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Postby Genie » Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:02 am

Dulouz wrote:
Genie wrote:They are trying to do that aren't they? But it helps when the city is behind them.

There is a real problem because there is such segregation in this city. Of course Mayor Dave came from a much more segregated city - Milwaukee - so he may think this is normal. But a black mayor would know what it is like to be on the outside looking in. He would have ideas on what to do because of this.
why? Because he is black? Or did he grow up poor? Do you think that Colin Powell had more in common with the black privates from the inner city or the white cadets from West Point?


Both Ray Allen and Colin Powell would know what it is like to walk down a street in a white neighborhood and have the people there look at them with fear because they are assumed to be criminals. Or to be followed in a store to make sure they didn't steal anything. Mayor Dave would never have that problem. As I said, he is from the Polish end of the "longest bridge in the world" in Milwaukee - that runs between Poland and Africa.

My husband went on an open housing march with Father Groppi back in the 1960s that went across that bridge. As soon as they got to the "Poland" end of the bridge, the people protecting the marchers formed lines on either side of the marchers to protect them from violence. The racial violence was terrible there and rivaled Chicago.

I have met Ray Allen, he is very friendly - much friendlier than Mayor Dave. It is a typical ploy for the dems and the left to label someone they are running against as right-wing and a shill for the corporate class. I would rather listen to Ray Allen first and hear what he has to say.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:50 am

Genie wrote:I have met Ray Allen, he is very friendly - much friendlier than Mayor Dave. It is a typical ploy for the dems and the left to label someone they are running against as right-wing and a shill for the corporate class. I would rather listen to Ray Allen first and hear what he has to say.

The label, until recently, has been self-applied. While he is now trying to distance himself from his right-wing past, his campaign contributions are coming from the corporate class (a large percentage from out of state).
Mayoral candidate Ray Allen, who launched his campaign by distancing himself from his Republican ties and disavowing the policies of President Bush, appears to be getting a fundraising boost from longtime GOP operatives.

I have also met Allen on more than one occasion. Yes, he can appear friendly when glad-handing people, but I've also seen him blow up big time when things don't go his way.
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Postby Dulouz » Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:02 pm

Genie wrote:
Both Ray Allen and Colin Powell would know what it is like to walk down a street in a white neighborhood and have the people there look at them with fear because they are assumed to be criminals. Or to be followed in a store to make sure they didn't steal anything. Mayor Dave would never have that problem. As I said, he is from the Polish end of the "longest bridge in the world" in Milwaukee - that runs between Poland and Africa.


So what? Do you really think that everyone who is of Polish descent and lives in Milwaukee embraces racist attitudes? Do you really believe that people are limited, if not predetermined, by their birth environment? Or do you think that genetics determines it?
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Postby BobArctor » Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:37 pm

A Black Republican is still a Republican.
I will never vote for a Republican.

Ray Allen is the attempt by the fat cats to play on Madison's liberals by using a Black man to front for them. Screw that.

Say, did you see the article in Madison Times about the national impeachment rally in DC, on Jan 27th?

Me neither.
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Postby harrissimo » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:32 am

Dulouz wrote:Madison is certainly a racist town...


What exactly do you mean by this statement? I don't understand.
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Re: The Mayor's "Race"

Postby harrissimo » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:20 am

Genie wrote:The point of all this is that it is possible that Gene Parks might have been elected mayor in 1973 if he had run instead of Paul Soglin...


and pigs could fly if they had wings. Just because somebody is black and runs for office and loses doesn't mean they lost because of racism. Maybe they lost because the voters preferred the other candidate.

I knew Gene Parks. I liked Gene Parks on a personal level. In fact I liked him a lot. But he was a nut job of the first order and would have been a terrible mayor. This opinion is based on my first hand knowledge of Gene Parks may he rest in Peace. The fact that he was a black man has nothing to do with the opinion I have although I'm sure some of the foron morons here will brand me a racist once again.

I am seriously considering voting for Allen. But his race will have nothing to do with my decision. In general Republicans disgust me but when it comes to local politics I have a different set of criteria. I'm more interested in practical matters. That's why I am a Soglin fan because he was a lefty that made sure the city worked on a nuts and bolts level. For example, the problems with the water wells would have never happened under his watch or they would have been nipped in the bud very early because the man took care of business. Trolley Cars? Forget about it!
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Postby Dulouz » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:22 am

harrissimo wrote:
Dulouz wrote:Madison is certainly a racist town...


What exactly do you mean by this statement? I don't understand.


Madison, with a huge majority of Euro-Americans (mostly German and Scandavian) tends to have the classic Northern racist tendencies. I think that, as a musician, yo have a number of colleagues who can give you a first hand perspective that I cannot.
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