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going up?.....gas prices, that is...

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Postby RockHopper » Tue May 01, 2007 1:47 pm

Fat.The.Gangster wrote:I hope the next sentence outlining your motivations includes the phrase "bat-shit crazy" because anyone who thinks of highways as "transportation welfare" is clearly certifiable or just a huge, huge idiot.

I realize that pointing out the analogies between our transportation policies and welfare reform is highly irritating to those who view a super-expensive road system that is only used at 1/8 capacity as a God-given right. But consider it from my perspective:

40% of my property tax dollars are being spent on something I use very little of. That’s right – even though my main form of transportation is not subject to motor-fuel or other motor-vehicle fees and taxes, I am still paying a sizeable chunk of change so that motorists can forgo considering their own economic well-being when making lifestyle choices involving transportation. Starts to sound a little like the arguments associated with welfare reform, does it not?

It is time my detractors start reeling out some facts to back up their assertions with the same effusiveness they reel out the invective!
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Postby TheBookPolice » Tue May 01, 2007 1:51 pm

RockHopper wrote:40% of my property tax dollars are being spent on something I use very little of. That’s right – even though my main form of transportation is not subject to motor-fuel or other motor-vehicle fees and taxes, I am still paying a sizeable chunk of change so that motorists can forgo considering their own economic well-being when making lifestyle choices involving transportation.


The apparent level of your intellect begs so many questions. Here's a few, off the top of my head.

Do you think the roads are used solely for trips between soccer practice and the mall?

Is that really your view of the world outside your bubble?

Do you grow your own food?

Sew your own clothes?

Do you have a helipad or landing strip on your property?

How do you think the things you use and need get to the places from which you procure them?

Where'd you get your bike?
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Postby Fat.The.Gangster » Tue May 01, 2007 2:10 pm

RockHopper wrote:Starts to sound a little like the arguments associated with welfare reform, does it not?


It does not. Welfare reform is an idea propogated by white-collar conservatives who think that giving impoverished individuals access to resources is somehow misguided while at the same time providing tax and financial incentives to big businesses whose corporate officers cut jobs, reduce benefits, and put people on welfare lines.

Paying for highway construction and maintenance that benefits everyone is very different than reforming a service that 2.1 percent of the population requires (generally speaking, the term "welfare" is vague as government benefits include all manner of assistance, not just flat compensation). The big difference here is that everyone can use the highways and only people who qualify for welfare can access it.

Nobody is saying that reducing our carbon output is a bad thing; what we're simply saying is that waiving a finger in people's faces to help realize that goal is counter-productive, if not counter-intuitive (you want these people to help you, not hate you, right?)
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue May 01, 2007 2:20 pm

RockHopper wrote:It is time my detractors start reeling out some facts ...

Right. The typical demand of the argumentatively challenged.

Where the hell are your facts? And why should we put forth that sort of effort when your arguments are entirely speculative at best and completely specious at their logical nadir?

I know you don't live off the fucking grid, because you're posting on this forum. Do you suppose that nationwide telecommunications would exist without a complex system of roads and the interstate highway system?

Get a fucking grip, you sorry little cycle-monkey. Go away and bask in the glow of your own self-importance, would ya? (Best slather yourself with SPF 35 or better first.)
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Postby RockHopper » Tue May 01, 2007 2:31 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:
RockHopper wrote:40% of my property tax dollars are being spent on something I use very little of. That’s right – even though my main form of transportation is not subject to motor-fuel or other motor-vehicle fees and taxes, I am still paying a sizeable chunk of change so that motorists can forgo considering their own economic well-being when making lifestyle choices involving transportation.


The apparent level of your intellect begs so many questions. Here's a few, off the top of my head.


First, may I suggest you do a little homework:

http://www.vtpi.org/whoserd.pdf

This sentence from page 1 stands out in particular:

"Since bicycling and walking impose lower roadway costs than motorized modes, people who rely primarily on nonmotorized modes tend to overpay their fair share of roadway costs and subsidize motorists."

Then consider that when I purchase the goods and services that you bring up these providers are passing their transportation costs along to me. In an ideal world where you pay for what you use, I am subsidizing motorists.

Finally, some facts would be a great addition to your accusations and assumptions. I am looking forward to a rational debate here on whether or not motorists are to blame for high gas prices.
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Postby TheBookPolice » Tue May 01, 2007 2:40 pm

RockHopper wrote:consider that when I purchase the goods and services that you bring up these providers are passing their transportation costs along to me. In an ideal world where you pay for what you use, I am subsidizing motorists.


If there were no roads, or if everyone who didn't own a car stopped paying in to the "road fund" and roads deteriorated faster, would your prices go up even more? (Answer: yep!)

You're going to get charged for it regardless. Why haggle about it when all you're really doing is appearing curmudgeonly for not wanting to "subsidiz[e] motorists"?

RockHopper wrote:Finally, some facts would be a great addition to your accusations and assumptions. I am looking forward to a rational debate here on whether or not motorists are to blame for high gas prices.


What accusations?

And gosh, assumptions just wouldn't be the same if they were accompanied by facts in hand. They'd be...well, they'd just be facts, wouldn't they? That's the neat thing about assumptions. They can be made in the absence of facts! So, fact me up, buddy. How do you plan on determining who pays for roads? What governmental program will do that? And how will that program be funded?
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Postby Fat.The.Gangster » Tue May 01, 2007 2:44 pm

RockHopper wrote:Finally, some facts would be a great addition to your accusations and assumptions. I am looking forward to a rational debate here on whether or not motorists are to blame for high gas prices.


What you have failed to provide amongst your "facts" is any statement that motorists maintain a higher share of responsibility for increased gas prices than any other faction, say, like collusion on the part the government and big oil to fix prices, hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico, Hugo Chavez, or any other conceivable market fluctuation.
Last edited by Fat.The.Gangster on Tue May 01, 2007 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Tue May 01, 2007 2:57 pm

RockHopper, do you have kids? If not, are you also opposed to your tax dollars supporting public education?
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Postby RockHopper » Tue May 01, 2007 2:59 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:What accusations?

How about:

The apparent level of your intellect begs so many questions.

And gosh, assumptions just wouldn't be the same if they were accompanied by facts in hand. They'd be...well, they'd just be facts, wouldn't they? That's the neat thing about assumptions. They can be made in the absence of facts! So, fact me up, buddy. How do you plan on determining who pays for roads? What governmental program will do that? And how will that program be funded?



The public way:

Toll roads would be nice for starters.

Then the governor could re-index the cost of the
State gas-tax to the level of road-cost inflation.

A Wheel Tax per car would be good.


The private way:

Let companies own and operate the major highways. I am sure they could come up with innovative ways to manage the costs of transportation.

But, this is all a distraction from the topic of high gas prices, which are entirely the fault of motorists.
So, anybody got a rational argument as to why high gas prices are the fault of someone else? Or shall we consider the argument won by me?
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Postby Fat.The.Gangster » Tue May 01, 2007 3:03 pm

RockHopper wrote: Or shall we consider the argument won by me?


Enjoy your annual Critical Mass ride with all the other self-righteous, myopic, douche-bags.
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Postby RockHopper » Tue May 01, 2007 3:07 pm

Fat.The.Gangster wrote:What you have failed to provide amongst your "facts" is any statement that motorists maintain a higher share of responsibility for increased gas prices than any other faction, say, like collusion on the part the government and big oil to fix prices, hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico, Hugo Chavez, or any other conceivable market fluctuation.


http://www.env-econ.net/2006/05/inelastic_short.html

The summary pretty much says it all:

With gasoline prices in the U.S. approaching an average $3 a gallon, Americans are moaning about the rising cost, but so far they are resisting big changes in their gas-guzzling ways.

The article goes on to describe why elasticity is so low for gasoline. In every case, consumer choices are behind the elasticity problems.

Choose to live near transit, elasticity goes up.
Bike a few times a month, elasticity goes up.
get a job where you can telecommute a few days a week, elasticity goes up.

And what is all behind this? The perception that consumers have a right to cheap energy. Eliminate that perception, and the problem goes away.
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue May 01, 2007 3:19 pm

RockHopper wrote:The private way:

Let companies own and operate the major highways. I am sure they could come up with innovative ways to manage the costs of transportation.

Yeah, 'cause private companies always do things on the up and up and save money over the long haul. Why, just look at Enron and WorldCom. Look at Halliburton and Bechtel. Yep, these guys are fucking geniuses when it comes to pinching pennies--in the short term that is, while they're cooking the fucking books or otherwise fleecing the taxpayer.

Or look at Big Oil itself. Record profits over the last several quarters. Some bean-counter is doing his or her job, that's for damn sure ... not that you'd see that success reflected in the price of their product.

Yeah, you're a genius, you are. The only debate you're ever likely to win is the following:

Resolved: RockHopper is a fucking retard.
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Postby Fat.The.Gangster » Tue May 01, 2007 3:24 pm

RockHopper wrote:
The summary pretty much says it all:

With gasoline prices in the U.S. approaching an average $3 a gallon, Americans are moaning about the rising cost, but so far they are resisting big changes in their gas-guzzling ways.


That pretty much summarizes nothing relevant other than you, and others, want to blame hard-working individuals for the rising cost of gasoline.

The summary and the accompanying article provide no insight into whether motorists are the cause of the increase any more than the government, big oil, costs of transportation, costs of processing, Hugo Chavez, the whim of some family, costs of lubrication for cycle enthusiasts masturbating to pictures of Lance Armstrong, or any other conceivable variable that goes into gasoline prices.

Show me that it is the motorists, and not any other variable responsible for the increase, and I will promise not to hit the first cyclist I see on my way home from work (work that I could not have found a few blocks away, or provided me the ability to telecommute).
Last edited by Fat.The.Gangster on Tue May 01, 2007 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby massimo » Tue May 01, 2007 3:24 pm

RockHopper wrote:With gasoline prices in the U.S. approaching an average $3 a gallon, Americans are moaning about the rising cost, but so far they are resisting big changes in their gas-guzzling ways.


"Americans"? "they"?

Who is "they"? I'm certainly not moaning about gas prices, and I'm an American. These generalizations are weak, and they're the reason everyone is hating you in this thread.

There are many compelling reasons to conserve energy, we all know that. This choir just happens to resent your preachy attitude.
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue May 01, 2007 3:32 pm

No shit, massimo. I don't even look at the fucking price when I'm filling my tank. I've have plenty of other outlets for my disgust than to worry about that shit.

And here's a newsflash: We all pay taxes for shit we don't use or want. A far greater proportion of mine go toward the fabrication and upkeep of weapons of mass destruction than go to road building and highway maintenance. And I'm not even a war supporter.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Get over yourself, ClodHopper. The fucking world doesn't revolve around your oh-so magnetic personality.
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