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Ethics a-go-go

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.

Should we give the money back?

no - so-and-so just learned a good business lesson
9
39%
yes - it's the right thing to do
11
48%
give it to the venue and/or soundguy as a good faith gesture after stinking up their stage
3
13%
 
Total votes : 23

Postby DrAwkward » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:02 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Why don'tcha just tell the promoter to book you another show and take the money out of that event.


Yeah, this is the best idea so far. It's a good compromise between the promoter sucking it up and the artist giving back what they were paid in good faith.

Honestly, though, i think it's kinda shitty of them from a "client relations" standpoint (if i'ma use a business term) to go back asking for a refund of what they paid you when it was *their* mistake. I mean, if there was no contract stating what you guys were to get paid, then it seems to me that a smart business looking to stay in good graces with the bands they work with would eat the mistake. Sure, they can let you know that you were accidentally overpaid, but then they should let you know that since it was THEIR mistake, not YOURS, that they're gonna eat the loss and let you keep it. I mean, if my company accidentally undercharges someone, they're gonna write it off in the interests of customer satisfaction rather than irritate a customer, ya know?

At that point, when the promoter says, "hey, i fucked up, but it was my mistake, so i'll take the loss," it's a great opportunity for you to offer to refund the money you were overpaid and become golden boys in the eyes of the promoter. At least, that's the way things would happen if bands were treated as people by most promoters.
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:25 pm

Fucked up? Then suck it up, Mr. Promoter Underling. Seriously, what kind of a weenie screws up and then asks for the dough back? A huge fuckin' weenie, that's who.

I think I'd just say that I already paid my band, but you're welcome to track them down for $25 apiece or whatever. And good luck with that, amateur.

There are plenty of businesses that will charge-back their employees for fiscal fuck-ups. If this were a sales transaction, once the customer was out the door, the onus would be on the dude working the register.

Better yet, tell the fucker to put it in writing next time and that he shouldn't be working with bands without a contract. Payback time! Like ... karmic, daddy-o!
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Re: Ethics a-go-go

Postby The Center Square » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:34 pm

apollovox wrote:. .

SO, played a show last week. Got paid. Now the employee-of-the-promoter-whose-show-it-was who paid us calls me at 8 this morning to ask me to please return $75 of what she paid us cause she accidentally paid us what the bar was supposed to get, not what we were.


I think the bigger problem here is an 8AM PHONE CALL!

The only promoters I know that are still up at 8 am and calling around for money are doing so b/c, well...

I love this fucking town.
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Postby superman » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:37 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:I think I'd just say that I already paid my band, but you're welcome to track them down for $25 apiece or whatever. And good luck with that, amateur.

That's what I'd say, along with a few choice words about the show.
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Postby apollovox » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:18 pm

Ah well, I just got an email from the big boss who's all like "Hey, I hear you're making a big stink on the forum, what's up with that?"

I don't consider this a big stink, but okay, maybe I need to work on my smelling skills. I just thought it was an interesting situation. The whole: "Am I responsible for fixing somebody else's screwup. . .when it was the last of a few instances of them failing to do their job, which at the time made it hard to do my job?"

For what it's worth, I told 'em whatever they want is fine with me.

And that the show was an organizational nightmare, as opposed to the many other times I have played for their organization, which all went swimmingly.

Thick skins people. . .grow 'em. Keeeerrrist.
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a dispatch from Chicago...

Postby jammybastard » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:50 am

WOW!
What the hell did I miss?

I leave town for 3 days and the shite starts flying!

Since apollo nuked the original story, let me see if I got it straight...

You played a show for Tag?
(I'm assuming that's the deal cause his *usual* flat rate is $50 for local openers.)

Kelli, his aide-de-camp/Dotrothy Heralds manager/SONA music fest organizer, (again, assuming it's her because she seems to do the payout at the small shows) paid you more than the $50 she was supposed to pay you, and then called you the next morning at 8am to ask for it back?

So far, so good?

And now the question of ethics...let's try the law first...

1. Did you have a contract or at least a verbal agreement with the promoter before the show?

If you did, select A, if not, Select B...

A. Then you must adhere to the contract. They overpaid you, but you had a legally binding agreement and must honor it despite their mistakes.

B. No contract? No verbal agreement? Well then how are you supposed to know what the correct amount is?
A representative of the promoter hands you cash as payment. This representative has a job, and that job is to keep the money straight.
If they do not, it is not your fault.
That's it. Done deal. You are free to go.

If there's no paper trail and no leagally binding verbal agreement then it's a simple exchange.
To come back the next morning and say, "Oh by the way..." is hilarious.
What would've happened if you weren't a local?
Do you think you would've gotten that call?
You think the story would've been the same?

As far as the *big stink* goes...nobody in the promoter biz likes negative publicity, especially among the local clietele,
BUT I think your nose is just fine.
Compared to some of the other stinks we've had here this is small potatoes.
I think you posed a very, very important question about financial and personal responsibility when it comes to dealing between artists and promoters.
Regardless of the end result, "thick skins" are in short supply.

Good luck in LA!
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Postby juanton » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:04 pm

If you had a contract and it was somehow vilotaed by how much money they gave you, then pay up. If not, give the promoter lackey just as good of an excuse as the promoter told her to give you.

This indeed sounds very Tag like. All of you goody, goodies should mark this one down as a strike against this Tag like promoter. I know it's exciting and all to play with the big name folks, but do you really have to deal with this sort of bullshit to have fun playing a gig? I think not. It's also very Tag like to come down on Apollovox for airing his grievances in a web forum. I say this promoter should stop trying to muscle people out of talking about their frustration with said promoter. Instead, the promoter should work a bit harder to not piss off so many people in the first place.
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Postby juanton » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:39 pm

I just went to the TapeOp Conference a couple weeks ago and thought something Steve Albini said really rang true for far more than he intended. His comment/analogy was in regards to producers not having the right mindset when dealing with bands/artists. His opinion was that producers think more of self gain than what is in their job description, i.e. to help who they are working for(musicians/artists) succeed.

His analogy was: "When I go to the gynecologist, I don't want the doc getting a hard on while looking at my pussy. I want them to be professional."

I think this should apply to promoters/band managers as well.
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Postby madt0wn » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:29 pm

So why is Steve Albini going to the gynecologist?
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Postby juanton » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:37 pm

madt0wn wrote:So why is Steve Albini going to the gynecologist?


Because he's a chicken shit pussy.
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Postby princessmidwest » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:38 pm

i'd robinhood it: buy shots for all the musicians who've played shows for no $ or $50 when they brought 100 people in. promoters suck, especially when they make their employees call a guy over $75 at 8 a.m.
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Postby supaunknown » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:56 pm

when is it ethical to steal? this isn't les miserables.

you agreed to play the gig for a set amount of $.
they accidentally paid you $75 more than that.
realizing their f-up soon afterward, they called you on it.
give it back.

what time they called or the profession they're in doesn't matter shit. when a teller at my bank gave me an extra $200 one day i didn't expect to keep it - i gave it back and they were grateful.
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Postby pjbogart » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:31 pm

I'm with supa on this, but it's really a personal question for the musician who got the extra $75. It's really not worth feeling guilty over $75, and if you don't feel guilty then it means that A) you feel like you earned the money and the promoter is laughing all the way to the bank, or B) you're a pretty selfish person. If wal-mart mailed me a rebate check and it had an extra zero on it I'd say "fuck wal-mart" but if the cashier at wal-mart game me an extra $20 I'd give it back for fear that they would get in trouble for having a short drawer. It all comes down to a sense of guilt and everyone is different and every situation is different.

That said, I'd give it back.
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Postby jammybastard » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:06 pm

juanton wrote:I just went to the TapeOp Conference a couple weeks ago...


Ok, it's official! I'm jealous of someone on the DP.
I really wanted to go that.
New Orleans?
Damn.
I bet it was excellent.

So what else did you get out of it?
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Postby juanton » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:29 pm

jammybastard wrote:
juanton wrote:I just went to the TapeOp Conference a couple weeks ago...


Ok, it's official! I'm jealous of someone on the DP.
I really wanted to go that.
New Orleans?
Damn.
I bet it was excellent.

So what else did you get out of it?


I didn't know Don Zienetara of Dischord fame was border line yuppy, yet still cool. Tony the drummer from Drums N Tuba is from Madison. Ian MacKaye eats apples. People argue about compressor topology and the tone a bypassed compressor imparts on a mix, good gear is expensive, most people, like me, don't know how to solder, the heroin mullet is hip, Wendy Schneider is a well known engineer(Yeah!!!), a rail whiskey means Jack Daniels, and most engineers/musicians drink more than I do.

NewOrleans stinks like a mix of piss, puke, stale booze, disinfectant, and rotting trash all the while it's 95 degrees, 100% humidity, and sunny. Quote from the air boat tourist guide,"everytime you northerners take a dump, we take a drink(out of the missisippi)...
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