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Re: HDTV

Postby Beer Moon » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:00 pm

Oh yeah so for general advice:

DO NOT GET SOLD ON THIS YEAR'S HARDWARE. There is almost no difference from one year to the next. Look at the big specs (1080 vs. 720) - look at reviews about the quality of scaling (as previously mentioned AVSForum is an amazing resource with in-home reviews from people who have purchased specific sets).

Get last year's model - or the one from two years ago. You can get some sick deals this way (which is I think what you're looking at with the Westinghouse).

Westinghouse is becoming known as a decent budget LCD manufacturer. They haven't been around all that long. That's about all I know.

Refurb is probably fine - the manufacturer has reviewed or repaired it - and usually they'll back it with their full manufacturer's warranty. Make sure this is true. "Open Box" is basically a retailer's way of saying the item is in working condition and as long as you are covered under the manufacturer's warranty - you should be good.

Don't buy an extended warranty. If it's a dud - you will probably find out right away. Most electronics that are going to fail do it fast.

Look online. Amazon has some great deals. I bought my TV from Newegg, and with $100 in shipping, I was still $300 cheaper than local retailers - BEFORE TAX. Also - online you have a larger selection and you're more likely to find a place that is clearing out last year's stock.

And recently - retailers are FREAKING OUT this year. Black Friday is coming early. I wouldn't be surprised to see better deals getting cut closer to the New Year. I purchased my TV a couple years ago during a New Year blowout - $700 off. Nearly a 40% discount.
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Re: HDTV

Postby MadMind » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:20 pm

I'm getting conflicting reports on the internet regarding contrast ratio in HDTV's.

For instance;
This article states that the "specification is used in marketing hype and promotion and is an unreliable figure for determining performance" and to essentially ignore it.

"Human contrast ratio is about 800 and anything beyond that defintely will cause viewer fatigue if not damage."

This article states that "Contrast ratio is probably the single most important performance factor in determining how you perceive the image quality of your HDTV", yet goes on to say "the contrast ratio specifications published by most manufacturers are useless at predicting performance."

And let me add that in comparing the same type and same size HDTV's in regards to contrast ratio is no longer the difference of a few hundred or a few thousand to 1.
As witnessed on this thread there are contrast ratio's of 1000:1, up to 1 Million:1. That's a HUGE differential.

Also, it seems that recently the big thing is advertising a 120Hz refresh rate (compared to the previous standard of 60Hz).
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Re: HDTV

Postby Beer Moon » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:30 am

Seems to me both articles say the same thing. You can't trust the numbers they list for contrast ratio.

From a visual perspective, yes, contrast ratio is important. By the numbers - you can't trust the bullshit numbers they print - period.

120hz refresh rates allows TVs to natively handle signals from Blu-Ray players at 24 frames per second. Some movies are starting to be released under this standard because it is the native framerate of the original film recording. Most TV signals are coming in at 30 frames per second, because video is recorded at 30 or 60 frames per second. So a 60hz refresh rate works perfect for all video sources - but it has a math problem with film material.

When a 60hz TV gets a 24 fps source it will perform what is called a 3:2 pulldown. This displays one frame for 3 frames and the next for 2. (12*2+12*3=60). Some people claim they can tell when this happens in specific scenarios - like when a movie is panning steadily from left to right. Others can't. You'll be hard-pressed to identify this in stores - because they are using video feeds (not a Blu-Ray player) and therefore almost all material is video.

With a 120hz TV, the math allows for equal display even with 24 fps sources (film), so the images each move past for equal times, and when panning side-to-side the transition from one image to the next is smoother.

Note panasonic solved this problem by using 72hz displays instead. Different solution, solves the same problem.

It has NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - to do with decreasing motion artifacts. That is what people will tell you though. They are wrong. IT WILL NOT MAKE SPORTS LOOK BETTER. It is ONLY used for translating the 24fps film material off Blu-Ray. Artifacting or blockiness are caused by the source material (HD Lite) far more often than by the capabilities of a TV. CBS local HD broadcasts, for instance, are utter garbage.

Now - that doesn't mean the 120hz TVs won't look better. They are, after all, newer. New panels. New electronics. Yes it will look a little better. Hundreds of engineers go to work for those companies every day to make sure the next model looks a little better. It's just not going to be anything more than an evolutionary upgrade in picture quality. Next year - there will be 120hz sets that look better than todays.

The question you have to ask is whether you'll be using Blu-Ray movies at 1080p/24, and if you think you'll see the "judder" that some people can see or not. It isn't worth it to pay for 120hz if you aren't a pretty hefty film buff, imo.
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Re: HDTV

Postby MadMind » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:49 pm

One other thing to consider is the evolving technology of 3D displays.

Currently, these are the current HDTV's compatible with 3D DVD's (Field-sequential, Sensio), the majority of which are DLP's.

Compatibility with LCD displays is challenged with limitations, but possible.

Spectroniq has a 46" LCD 3D HDTV.
Spectroniq Moves 3D TV Closer to the Goal
It even has built-in compatibility with Sensio 3D DVDs.

Hyundai also has released a 3D enabled 46-inch LCD, yet has no plans to introduce its 3D HDTV outside of Japan.

And no matter what kind of 3D enabled HDTV you have, if you want to watch 3D Field-Sequential DVDs on it, one must first run it through your PC.

Other than hardware, another big aspect holding 3D HDTV back is the limited library of 3D DVD's on the market, with no home 3D releases of big titles such as Monster House and other 3D Disney/Pixar releases, Beowulf, or Journey To The Center Of The Earth (only available in severely outdated anaglyph format).

Once a new 3D standard for the home is solidified, the big question is will you have to invest in new hardware to display it?
TDVision has developed it's own proprietary 3D system which is backwards compatible with existing Blu-Ray players, Article, but in the big picture, unfortunately, the answer seems to be pointing to yes, in both display hardware and Blu-Ray. Although some are saying that it would take nothing more than a firmware update if you use a PS3 for Blu-Ray.

For the 3D enthusiast (who do not yet own an HDTV), the question then becomes;
A) Purchase an HDTV (of any format) now?, and accept the fact that one will have to purchase new hardware when the new 3D standard is defined and marketed?
B) Purchase a 3D-capable DLP HDTV (regardless of price and whether or not one might prefer LCD or Plasma to DLP) for use with whatever limited 3D media is out there today, regardless of the fact that Field-Sequential/Sensio may be a dead technology, and risking the fact that the 3D-capable HDTV's of today might not be compatible with a new standard of 3D Blu-Ray tomorrow?
C) Hold off on purchasing an HDTV and wait until a new 3D standard is defined and marketed (and who knows how long that might be!)?
Last edited by MadMind on Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HDTV

Postby Beer Moon » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:01 pm

No offense, but 3D is not really a consideration imo. I couldn't even tell you one film or event that is 3D (aside from the football game this week - which is showing in 3D only in theatres local to the game - due to the increased bandwidth needed to send 3D), and there are not really any providers stepping up to provide 3D content (DirecTV, Dish, cable, etc).

If it goes anywhere, it won't be for another 5 years. Too long to wait for someone shopping today.

As a fan of DLPs, I think there are other reasons to go with that tech. $$/inches being the most convincing.
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Re: HDTV

Postby MadMind » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:57 pm

I agree that 5 years would be much too long to wait, but I don't think it will be that long.
Companies are already vying for their tech to become the new standard in 3D Blu-Ray.
And IF Blu-Ray doesn't have much more than 5 years to live, as a Samsung exec believes - then it's now or never.
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Re: HDTV

Postby MadMind » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:56 pm

Is judder specific to Blu-Ray? Because I watched a DVD on a lower-end LCD on Thanksgiving and noticed a sort of screen freeze or delay at least a dozen times.
Also, is the 120Hz refresh rate specific to LCD's?
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Re: HDTV

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:08 pm

Is judder specific to Blu-Ray? Because I watched a DVD on a lower-end LCD on Thanksgiving and noticed a sort of screen freeze or delay at least a dozen times.
Also, is the 120Hz refresh rate specific to LCD's?


It's "Jitter" not judder. No that has nothing to do with the TV and everything to do with Charter.
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Re: HDTV

Postby TAsunder » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:23 pm

I'm all for blaming Charter for things, but what would Charter have to do with watching a DVD on an LCD TV?

A screen freeze or delay is well beyond the scope of the thing Beer Moon was describing. My guess is that the DVD player is an older one that takes a while to switch layers. My old DVD player did that.
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Re: HDTV

Postby Beer Moon » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:45 am

TAsunder wrote:I'm all for blaming Charter for things, but what would Charter have to do with watching a DVD on an LCD TV?

A screen freeze or delay is well beyond the scope of the thing Beer Moon was describing. My guess is that the DVD player is an older one that takes a while to switch layers. My old DVD player did that.


Likely the source, if the TV does not do this when displaying video from other sources - like cable or OTA tv.

I'd agree with TASunder - probably an issue with your DVD player. If you happen to be in the market (and won't be going blu-ray), I really am tempted to recommend one of the now-inexpensive HD-DVD players. You wouldn't need to get HD-DVDs for it - I happen to know the HD-A2 in particular is an excellent upscaling DVD player. They are down to about $50 now.
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Re: HDTV

Postby Bwis53 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:53 am

I've been noticing more low-priced sales recently. I wonder if those prices will go up or down, after the new year?
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Re: HDTV

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:46 pm

My converter is working fine. I had to put away my tiny Sony, as it doesn't seem worth hooking up to a converter. I saw a small digital, at Walgreen's, but it looked lousy. Perhaps, if I get enough stimulus $$, I'll get myself a tiny HDTV, Beer Moon so kindly linked.
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Re: HDTV

Postby MadMind » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:22 pm

Now there's even LCD's with 200Hz and 240Hz refresh rates. Thoughts? Anyone have a set with 200Hz/240Hz refresh rates?
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Re: HDTV

Postby Beer Moon » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:25 am

MadMind wrote:Now there's even LCD's with 200Hz and 240Hz refresh rates. Thoughts? Anyone have a set with 200Hz/240Hz refresh rates?


Same as I explained before. Useless marketing stats - they know bigger numbers are thought of as better. This is not a statistic to be interested in - and if you have a Blu-Ray player, then you might want 120hz. No, 240hz doesn't hurt. Doesn't help either compared to 120hz.

And the "MotionFlow" or whatever crap that they market along with this is always recommended to be turned off - because it just adds more processing and doesn't make the picture look any better.
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Re: HDTV

Postby HeartandSoul » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:25 pm

Anyone who owns or plans to own an HDTV 42" and above who doesn't own or doesn't plan to own a Blu-Ray player is wasting away the potential of their set.
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