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"Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:18 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Do you have the same objections to the common Defence?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to ask, but I'll give a rough description of what "common Defence" means to this layperson Constitution reader. Common Defence includes the day-to-day and wartime material and labor costs of maintaining the military, as directed by the President and funded/appropriated by the Congress. I would consider this type of Defence to include what we would commonly refer to as national security - border security, naval security, and riotous/rebellious internal security as well as addressing normal police/crime issues (which are better handled at the local level). All of these actions are taken in the name of preserving the integrity and general Welfare of the Union itself (as a geographic and political entity), not of the individual citizens or persons therein. Does this answer your question?

If you're trying to get me to play Talking Points, then I'm not really interested. Do I support many of the aggressive, so-called 'defense' measures our nation has taken in the past two decades? No. Do I support torture or suspension of due process for accused 'enemy combatants'? No.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:29 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Since December 2007, when the current downturn began,

2009 jobs bill.

just "doesn't get"


Not poignant, Fisty. Not a very honorable defense either. Democrats can't blame Republicans for the budget of a Dem majority congress. Spending arguments are twisted in nature in bills where you have to vote for one thing to approve another, you know their six figure salaries were tucked into some red herring bill. While the arguments are twisted, the results are plain. Once again defending the indefensible. The 2009 "jobs" bill just puts the effect into hyper speed. This the angry public "gets".
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:35 pm

Democrats can't blame Republicans for the budget of a Dem majority congress


Democrats took over in Jan. 2007. Bush vetoed everything they sent him including health care for children. You expect me to believe your crackpot notion that they were able to create a trillion dollar deficit? Even if they did (and they didn't) Bush would have had to sign it. Please point to specific examples of them creating this deficit.

You have your facts wrong bub. Bush's tax cuts, and his wars, and his Medicare hand out ARE the deficit Obama took over in Jan 2009.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:45 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Democrats can't blame Republicans for the budget of a Dem majority congress


Democrats took over in Jan. 2007. Bush vetoed everything they sent him including health care for children. You expect me to believe your crackpot notion that they were able to create a trillion dollar deficit? Even if they did (and they didn't) Bush would have had to sign it. Please point to specific examples of them creating this deficit.

You have your facts wrong bub. Bush's tax cuts, and his wars, and his Medicare hand out ARE the deficit Obama took over in Jan 2009.

Boston.com wrote:Since December 2007, when the current downturn began, the ranks of federal employees earning $100,000 and up has skyrocketed.

http://boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial ... employees/
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:51 pm

That's it huh? 1 Trillion Dollars all went straight into the pockets of government workers. You believe that honestly or are you just trying to "get" me?

Use your google machine and find out how much Bush's tax cuts cost. Then find out how they were paid for.
Look up how much the two wars cost. Now look up how they were paid for.
Look up how much Medicare Part D cost. Then find out how they were paid for.

The answers are they cost a shit ton more than any Democrat controlled Congress spent. Ever. And they weren't paid for. not at all.

These are specific pieces of legislation that cost specific amounts of money that were specifically voted on and signed into law. Those are FACTS. All you've given is an article from the Boston Globe.

Why do I bother?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:52 pm

Since December 2007, when the current downturn began, the ranks of federal employees earning $100,000 and up has skyrocketed.


Also "Skyrocketed"? 14%-19% That's 5%. If that's your definition of Skyrocketed we need to have a talk about military spending and health care costs.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:54 pm

Here. Read this. it's from a Right wing think tank. You can trust it.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bus ... -pictures/
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:58 pm

Here's a more recent chart from an "Independent"
http://perotcharts.com/2009/02/projecte ... ulus-bill/
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:04 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Democrats took over in Jan. 2007. Bush vetoed everything they sent him including health care for children. You expect me to believe your crackpot notion that they were able to create a trillion dollar deficit? Even if they did (and they didn't) Bush would have had to sign it. Please point to specific examples of them creating this deficit.

You have your facts wrong bub. Bush's tax cuts, and his wars, and his Medicare hand out ARE the deficit Obama took over in Jan 2009.

Fisticuffs - what were Bush's budget items, if not proposed by Congress? I understand that vetoed proposals do not get funded. Thus if Bush vetoed everything that the Congress sent him, then the discretionary budget would have been zero. Non-discretionary spending is off-limits to modification (why? I'm not sure), and this certainly was rising the whole time. Defense, which is discretionary, rose steadily through Bush's terms and has continued to rise unabated since 2007. The blame belongs to all the representatives who voted 'yea' on these budgets, regardless of party affiliation or party dominance.

Taxes are revenues, not expenditures, and thus are not "paid for".
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:08 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Do you have the same objections to the common Defence?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to ask, but I'll give a rough description of what "common Defence" means to this layperson Constitution reader. Common Defence includes the day-to-day and wartime material and labor costs of maintaining the military, as directed by the President and funded/appropriated by the Congress. I would consider this type of Defence to include what we would commonly refer to as national security - border security, naval security, and riotous/rebellious internal security as well as addressing normal police/crime issues (which are better handled at the local level).

Yes I agree. Normal police/crime issues usually aren't federal, but the rest are mandated by the Constitution. That mandate reads "common Defence and general Welfare" so I assume they are of equal weight. So what are the limits on general welfare, especially considering the meaning of the Ninth Amendment?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:13 pm

You're right everyone who voted Yea is responsible. What I won't stand for is the argument that everything was fine and dandy and fiscally responsible until those evil Democrats took control in 2007. The Democrats can't get anything passed with a Super majority and the presidency how is it they they managed to get so much done with a slim majority over the course of 2 years? Why didn't the Republicans, supposedly so fiscally responsible, stop them? It's a fairy tale. A lie believed by people who don't want to acknowledge that their side fucked up. Instead they crow on and on about blaming Bush. Obama's spending is a reaction to Bush's deficit and the financial collapse it brought. He's not spending becasue he hates freedom like Cortez here would have you believe.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:14 pm

fisticuffs wrote:That's it huh? 1 Trillion Dollars all went straight into the pockets of government workers. You believe that honestly or are you just trying to "get" me?

Use your google machine and find out how much Bush's tax cuts cost. Then find out how they were paid for.
Look up how much the two wars cost. Now look up how they were paid for.
Look up how much Medicare Part D cost. Then find out how they were paid for.

The answers are they cost a shit ton more than any Democrat controlled Congress spent. Ever. And they weren't paid for. not at all.

These are specific pieces of legislation that cost specific amounts of money that were specifically voted on and signed into law. Those are FACTS. All you've given is an article from the Boston Globe.

Why do I bother?

Calmer than you are, Dude. Now you're on the wrong track, and still not poignant. I'm trying to tell myself that you have the capacity to relinquish the blame button for even a second though I have a sinking feeling its your modus operandi. I'm remarking on the peculiar irony of this persistence. Its not to your benefit, politically, because its not to the nation's benefit. You don't need to look up anything. This is an example of what was done with the "stimulus". Krugman is wrong and he knows it and he doesn't care because he doesn't mean it. You should know it too. 5% means one in twenty useless government leeches were granted a six figure salary since the start of the recession. The economy is losing 65,000 jobs a month even while the government is adding 10,000 jobs per month - one in twenty of whom make more than a hundred thousand dollars a year. Don't defend the indefensible.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Ned Flanders » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:14 pm

"Welfare" didn't mean then what it means to Dims now.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:26 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:"Welfare" didn't mean then what it means to Dims now.

Go on. I'd love to hear more about the constitutional meaning of and limitations on that word.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:29 pm

NYtimes wrote:For the first time in American history, a majority of union members are government workers rather than private-sector employees, the Bureau of Labor Statistics announced on Friday.

In its annual report on union membership, the bureau undercut the longstanding notion that union members are overwhelmingly blue-collar factory workers . It found that membership fell so fast in the private sector in 2009 that the 7.9 million unionized public-sector workers (one in twenty of whom receive a six figure salary) easily outnumbered those in the private sector, where labor’s ranks shrank to 7.4 million, from 8.2 million in 2008.

“There has been steady growth among union members in the public sector, but I’m a little bit shocked to see that the lines have actually crossed,” said Randel K. Johnson, senior vice president for labor at the United States Chamber of Commerce.

According to the labor bureau, 7.2 percent of private-sector workers were union members last year, down from 7.6 percent the previous year. That, labor historians said, was the lowest percentage of private-sector workers in unions since 1900.

Among government workers, union membership grew to 37.4 percent last year, from 36.8 percent in 2008.

Gerald W. McEntee, president of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, voiced dismay that government employees now represented a majority of union members.

“It’s a very bad sign,” he said. “We’ve been banged around some, but when you see what’s been happening to the industrial base of this country, to the steelworkers, to the autoworkers, they’re been hammered much more.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/business/23labor.html
Last edited by Cortez on Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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