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Government Motors...a success story.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:00 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Come on bro, you're better than that.


What do you mean?
That's number 2 on the the Tea Party top 10 list.
Reject Cap and Trade.
It doesn't say reject cap and trade in some form. I don't think you would have said you'd support it in some form if you hadn't just backed yourself into that corner.


Dude, I'm no Tea Partier...
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:01 pm

Crockett wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Seriously drop the "socialist" shit. Only complete dumb shits run around screaming that. You're better than that.


Dude, when you want artificial jobs funded by the govt there's no other word for it.

Yeah, I'm not afraid of calling it what it is either. Socialism is not like witchcraft, contrary to popular belief. It is a socioeconomic arrangement distinct from capitalism, fascism, anarchism etc. If a policy is socialist (like, socializing the losses of a failing company), then it's OK to call it socialist.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:02 pm

How egalitarian of you. "Artificial or not"? Really? Who is living in fantasyland now?


Sorry I was using your term. Someone goes to work and gets paid for it I call that a job regardless of who's paying them.

Dude, when you want artificial jobs funded by the govt there's no other word for it.


We have always had a mixture of public and private in our country. It doesn't make us Russia.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:15 pm

fisticuffs wrote:We have always had a mixture of public and private in our country. It doesn't make us Russia.


But historically the public jobs have had a purpose. You're proposing keeping jobs for the sake of jobs. Big difference.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:16 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Someone goes to work and gets paid for it I call that a job regardless of who's paying them.

Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?

Can you elaborate on what your idea of "a job" is? For instance - why do we have "jobs"? You should think a little deeper about this one.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Average Joe » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:25 pm

Funny how the cheerleaders for failure have no problem spending hours during the middle of the work day arguing how GM jobs shouldn't have been saved. Do you guys work the night shift, or are you OK with taking advantage of your employer's time?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:29 pm

I work at night.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:30 pm

Can you elaborate on what your idea of "a job" is? For instance - why do we have "jobs"? You should think a little deeper about this one.


GM makes cars. People buy them. GM pays them. They buy stuff. People work and get paid from the sale and production of that stuff. How is any of this artificial?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:37 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Can you elaborate on what your idea of "a job" is? For instance - why do we have "jobs"? You should think a little deeper about this one.


GM makes cars. People buy them. GM pays them. They buy stuff. People work and get paid from the sale and production of that stuff. How is any of this artificial?


They don't make money. The money they pay their people and the money they pay for their 'stuff' isnt theirs. Who's is it you ask?

This is becoming a clown show. I'm almost finished here.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:41 pm

This is becoming a clown show. I'm almost finished here.


Yeah since about the time you joined this board. Go research the word "loan" and come back. Also I hope whatever industry you work in goes in the shitter due to no fault of your own and you lose your home. I hope your company strips away your retirement and medical benefits.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:47 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
This is becoming a clown show. I'm almost finished here.


Yeah since about the time you joined this board. Go research the word "loan" and come back. Also I hope whatever industry you work in goes in the shitter due to no fault of your own and you lose your home. I hope your company strips away your retirement and medical benefits.


I hope my company gets bailed out and I leech off the rest of society until your children's whole world crumbles.

Good day sir.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:57 pm

I hope my company gets bailed out and I leech off the rest of society until your children's whole world crumbles.


Your average auto worker doing 60 hours a week in a factory to feed his kids is leeching off society? What do you do that's so fucking noble?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby eriedasch » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:09 pm

Average Joe wrote:the cheerleaders for failure

Interesting term.

However I see GM as the continual failure. They still send jobs to Mexico. They still cannot create a hybrid that is NOT a big truck that gets much over 20mpg. They have had electric car technology since the mid '90s. It has been almost 15 years since the EV (yes I watched Who Killed the Electic Car recently) and still waiting for this Chevy Volt to come out. They brag about having 6 models that get over 30mpg. Yup, and the Nissan Sentra I drove in 1986 got 33mpg. GM technology and innovation has not progressed for 30 years.

I understand why the gov't bailed out GM, feel for all the workers with their jobs at stake, but once again, the U.S. Gov't hands over all the cash without any accountablility.

With the bailout and the loan should have come some regulations to prevent GM from pulling the same shit they continue to get away with for the last 30+ years : expensive, gas guzzling vehicles that do not hold their value and therefore do not compare to the competition.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:15 pm

With the bailout and the loan should have come some regulations to prevent GM from pulling the same shit they continue to get away with for the last 30+ years : expensive, gas guzzling vehicles that do not hold their value and therefore do not compare to the competition.


We got those regulations a few months ago. Something we could have done 20 years ago but Republicans fought against.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:29 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Stebben84 wrote:Why? Do you need a large company to fail in order for start-ups to occur. There is still money out there. And as someone else said, a start-up is not going to come in a shwooosh, make a better car. That takes time. They've had years and years to be a start-up and they still can start up. I think that is a moot point for this debate.

It is absolutely not a moot point. While a new company can start up in the presence of a state-subsidized oligopoly, they are at a competitive disadvantage (because they are not subsidized).

Crockett made an excellent point earlier when suggesting that the start-ups might not even make cars - they might make something else entirely. Maybe those engineers and factory-line employees would be better off long-term working in whatever new industry develops after GM closes shop. Those "good-paying American jobs" in the auto industry only existed on their own terms for just a few decades - they had by no means achieved a stasis in the American economic/jobs picture.


If the start-up has nothing to do with making cars, then how are they competing against this oligopoly? There is government money to be had for these start-ups. There are tax breaks for new businesses, federal grants, and federal loans. I don't see how starting a solar panel business is going to be impacted by GM getting government money. Especially if you don't think this start-up should be subsidized at all.

My grandparents and many other people's parents have actually worked at these jobs their entire lives and did well. Times are changing, sure, but to say that these jobs achieved no stasis in the American economic picture is short sited. Plus many people don't stay with one job for their entire lives either.

You also go on to say that these employees would be better off in the "long term" start-up jobs. First off, I don't think there is any shortage of people looking for work right now. Also, these start-up companies are often very risky and don't always make it. You think that is a more stable job. These statements have no reality based in them.

In the end, I think the GM story is on the road to achieving it's goals of keeping many, many people out of work. Let's not forget some towns are based off of these companies and the job loss gets spread beyond the factory. I don't really know what is truly a success story cause if in 20 years GM fails, people will say it wasn't a success. All I can say is that, in my opinion, it helped during a crappy economic time.
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