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Government Motors...a success story.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:20 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Someone goes to work and gets paid for it I call that a job regardless of who's paying them.

Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?

Can you elaborate on what your idea of "a job" is? For instance - why do we have "jobs"? You should think a little deeper about this one.


I'll answer this in my own opinion. No linking to official definitions or that bullshit.

I actually think fisticuffs brought it down to its basics. A job is a thing, not something we do. Work is what we do. We have jobs because people need work done. A job is that "thing" that encompasses the work that we do. How we complete the job is a matter of work ethic, dedication, skill, knowledge, etc... A job doesn't have to be for money. It can be for trade or sometimes for free. Most often it's for money. Some people I know have a job to pay for the things they like to do when they're not at their job. Others have jobs that encompass their lives. That becomes much more of a career or a lifestyle. We all treat "jobs" differently. It's a matter of how dedicated you are to that job even more so than your dedication to the work involved. I think many of us have had jobs we don't like, but love the work that we do(or vice verse). Those are sometimes two different things.

Jobs numbers are just an economic indicator. They don't speak much more than quantifying the number of people getting paid.

That's the somewhat philosophical answer to the question. Philosophy isn't always practical, it's just verbiage for the sake of debate. The more practical straight up answer is that:

fisticuffs wrote:Someone goes to work and gets paid for it I call that a job regardless of who's paying them.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Average Joe » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:05 pm

Crockett wrote:I work at night.


So in addition to stealing productivity from your employer, you're also a liar?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby O.J. » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:27 am

Average Joe wrote:GM's bonds are going to be sold and the government will be repaid with a profit.


I don't see how this will be possible: just to break even, the government will have to sell its 304 million shares at roughly $140 apiece.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:33 am

Average Joe wrote:
Crockett wrote:I work at night.


So in addition to stealing productivity from your employer, you're also a liar?


Who the fuck are you?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Average Joe » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:16 pm

Crockett wrote:
Average Joe wrote:
Crockett wrote:I work at night.


So in addition to stealing productivity from your employer, you're also a liar?


Who the fuck are you?


I'll tell you who the fuck I am. Remind me to let you know when you're back in the office on Monday.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby 7 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:06 pm

Crockett, take your econ class and shove it.

1. There never was a "free" market.
The government subsidizes industry period.
It also gave tax breaks to companies that moved jobs out of the USA.

2. Every dollar spent for job creation in the stimulus bill we get 65 cents back into the economy.
An insane business plan for the long term but an economy based on CONSUMERS needs consumers/people with jobs.

3. The concentration of wealth upward over the last 30 years has given more political power to corporations then to people.

So when you say that "the Government" should not be involved in the "free" market...I say that you are just another ignorant kool aid drinker.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby magic moose » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:11 am

In an era of exchange rate disparities and international industry (especially large scale capital-intensive industry), "free markets" are obsolete as a useful and practical concept. Certainly pertaining to the auto industry, where markets are/were never free.

We can pretend that markets are not influenced by, for example, foreign industrial and monetary policies, and use these extant decisions as a basis on which we might let domestic industries live and die. This seems more based on ideology than in keeping with the values of scientific economics (as opposed to the unscientific ideology popularly invoked by using the term "free market").

I don't subscribe to them, but there are probably better arguments as to why we should let the auto industry die than just "because the free market says so." In this situation, that's about as intellectually useful as saying it's because "a unicorn whispered it to me." Even less useful maybe, since the rhetorical imagery is intentionally misleading.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby 7 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:55 pm

The terms free market, socialist, communist, and fascist are all misused by ideologues and idiots these days.

magic moose wrote:In this situation, that's about as intellectually useful as saying it's because "a unicorn whispered it to me." Even less useful maybe, since the rhetorical imagery is intentionally misleading.


Thanks magic moose.
I will be using this line on the GOP/Tea Party crowd this election cycle.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Vinnie P » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:51 pm

Stebben84 wrote:I actually think fisticuffs brought it down to its basics. A job is a thing, not something we do. Work is what we do. We have jobs because people need work done. A job is that "thing" that encompasses the work that we do. How we complete the job is a matter of work ethic, dedication, skill, knowledge, etc... A job doesn't have to be for money. It can be for trade or sometimes for free. Most often it's for money. Some people I know have a job to pay for the things they like to do when they're not at their job. Others have jobs that encompass their lives. That becomes much more of a career or a lifestyle. We all treat "jobs" differently. It's a matter of how dedicated you are to that job even more so than your dedication to the work involved. I think many of us have had jobs we don't like, but love the work that we do(or vice verse). Those are sometimes two different things.

Jobs numbers are just an economic indicator. They don't speak much more than quantifying the number of people getting paid.


I like this.

In my case I like my job, but I HATE the work I do most of the time. The job has a lot of gret aspects. I work at home so I get to control over the environment, I get to decide when to work and when not to (as long as I meet my deadlines), and I use my own tools so I don't have to put up with being provided with sub-par stuff. There's no dress code, no co-workers to deal with so no office politics, and I can smoke while I work.

The work itself is another thing. Most of the time it's pretty unsatisfying, unchallenging, and stupid. On the other hand the money is good.

Needless to say, I do it for the money.

BTW, I drive a GM vehicle and I LOVE it.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:37 pm

(Reuters) - General Motors Co may have the world's biggest initial public offering, but U.S. taxpayers were more than $9 billion underwater on the government-funded restructuring at its current share price on Thursday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AH5F320101118

So much for this great 'success' story...
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:41 pm

So much for this great 'success' story...


Yep saving a million jobs was a bad idea. It sounds to me like they've paid back the Obama loans and not the Bush giveaways no one wants to bring up. This article also doesn't say that this isn't going to be paid back. Stock just has to go up a little bit more before we sell it back.

What would your definition of success have been?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:46 pm

fisticuffs wrote: Stock just has to go up a little bit more before we sell it back.


Ummm...yeah...it just needs to go up over 53% and we'll be even.

Bottom line is that its a story, but its not a 'success' story by any definition.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:54 pm

Sure it is. We saved a shit ton of jobs in manufacturing. Something we don't have much of left. I'd consider it a success if we lost 20 Billion. What is your measure of success? Would a liquidated bankrupt GM be a success? What about the thousands of suppliers? The billions in lost tax revenue? Is that success? Is it a success if we get all our money back?
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:11 pm

Yes, a liquidated GM would have been a success. You can't keep propping up a failed organization. Weekend at Bernies. Extend and pretend. Its time to let things go.
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:13 pm

Yes, a liquidated GM would have been a success.


Yep I can't get behind that at all.
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